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Lowering pH in brackish tanks..

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:18 am
by kxebs
Well .. as the subject says.. How to lower the pH in brackish tanks? In FW you use co2 or peat, but can I use it also in BW?

Point is, my GSP has in his BW tank a pH of 9.0 In PufferPedia it says that he likes to be in 7.0-8.3, so I want to lower it.. Or is it better to just leave it in this way?

Re: Lowering pH in brackish tanks..

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:51 am
by Peregrine
Fish will adjust...best to just leave it where it is. There are too many other factors contributing to the make up of PH to make it easily controllable, and swings in PH are more harmful than a consistently high or consistently low PH

Re: Lowering pH in brackish tanks..

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:57 am
by Pufferpunk
What are you using to test?

Re: Lowering pH in brackish tanks..

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:08 pm
by kxebs
Fluid tests from Tetra..

I know that it is better to have a consistent pH, but I want to keep it at the level the GSP likes it most :)

Re: Lowering pH in brackish tanks..

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:26 pm
by nmonks
It couldn't matter less. There's a misunderstanding here that fish have a "preferred" pH; they do not. Fish respond to the total dissolved solids (TDS) in the water. The pH -- within reason -- is merely a shorthand way for aquarists to estimate the TDS; i.e., acid pH generally implies a low TDS, alkaline pH a high TDS. But that's a rule of thumb, at best.

Furthermore, brackish water fish do not expect, and have not evolved for, stable water chemistry conditions. They are not deep sea fish, for example, where the climate is essentially constant day after day. Brackish water fish have the "hardware" to adapt to changes. Their environment changes all the time. A wild GSP will be swimming between soft, acid water in the upper delta through to more neutral water chemistry in the estuary proper, and periodically saline, perhaps saltwater, conditions at the river mouth or in a mangrove swamp. There are no practical advantages to keeping them under stable conditions. Stable water conditions matter to the filter, yes, but not to the fish.

You are more likely to cause problems messing about with the pH than leaving it at something that "seems" too high (or too low). Provided your water has a high level of TDS (approximating to, say, a carbonate hardness of 10 to 20 degrees KH) and a specific gravity above SG 1.005, then your GSPs are happy. Period. End of story.

Worry more about a balanced diet, good water quality, swimming space, etc. These are things that matter here.

Cheers, Neale
kxebs wrote:I know that it is better to have a consistent pH, but I want to keep it at the level the GSP likes it most

Re: Lowering pH in brackish tanks..

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:21 am
by kxebs
Thanks for your useful explanation! :D

My KH is currently about 6 en the SG is 1.012, they are almost always consistent. The balanced diet, water quality (you mean NO2/NO3 here I think?) and swimming place aren't a problem.

Re: Lowering pH in brackish tanks..

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:09 am
by nmonks
Yes, I do mean nitrogenous wastes when talking about water quality. With regard to the carbonate hardness, I'd consider 6 degrees KH to be a bit low for a brackish water system. It isn't critical, especially if you do regular water changes, but on the whole the higher the KH, the better. The "quick fix" is to stuff something like crushed coral or crushed oyster shell into the filter. While this won't dramatically raise the KH, it will have a slight effect, and more importantly, it will inhibit acidification. As the water becomes acidic, the calcareous filter media will dissolve more quickly, reverting the acidification. It's easy to clean and/or replace this media each time you clean the filter.

Cheers, Neale
kxebs wrote:My KH is currently about 6 en the SG is 1.012, they are almost always consistent. The balanced diet, water quality (you mean NO2/NO3 here I think?) and swimming place aren't a problem.

Re: Lowering pH in brackish tanks..

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:50 am
by kxebs
Hm, that's somewhat strange then.. as I've got on the bottom of the tank a layer of live sand (from the Bahama's if I'm correct). Far as I know, it does consist crushed coral.. Am I wrong here? Well.. anyway, the "quick fix" solution will not give me any problems but on the long term, what is best to do?
When I add the aquarium salt, will it also raise the KH? (KH of the tapwater here is about 4) Is it better to put crushed shell's in the filter for a consistent solution?
nmonks wrote:Yes, I do mean nitrogenous wastes when talking about water quality. With regard to the carbonate hardness, I'd consider 6 degrees KH to be a bit low for a brackish water system. It isn't critical, especially if you do regular water changes, but on the whole the higher the KH, the better. The "quick fix" is to stuff something like crushed coral or crushed oyster shell into the filter. While this won't dramatically raise the KH, it will have a slight effect, and more importantly, it will inhibit acidification. As the water becomes acidic, the calcareous filter media will dissolve more quickly, reverting the acidification. It's easy to clean and/or replace this media each time you clean the filter.

Cheers, Neale

Re: Lowering pH in brackish tanks..

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:13 am
by nmonks
Adding calcareous substrate to the bottom of the tank is not, as you've discovered, a very effective way to raise the carbonate hardness. Calcareous material like coral sand stops dissolving once it is covered with algae and bacteria (think of how the chocolate in an M&M is "isolated" from the air by the candy coating).

Furthermore, the rate at which dissolution takes place depends on the speed with which the water passes through the substrate. Water hardly moves at all through a regular substrate. So the water around each grain eventually becomes saturated with carbonate ions, and dissolution effectively stops (yes, I understand it's an equilibrium reaction, but let's keep it simple for now). By contrast, in a tank with an undergravel filter, the water is constantly being pushed through the substrate. The water around each grain doesn't have long enough to become saturated with carbonate before it moves through the filter plate and then back into the main body of water in the aquarium. In other words, the undergravel filter ensures dissolution can continue at maximum speed all the time.

This is the illusion behind the coral sand substrate, and why there are plenty of stories of people with coral sand substrates but relatively low KH readings.

Marine salt mix (as opposed to aquarium salt) should raise the KH because it has lots of carbonate added. This does vary from brand to brand somewhat, so reading the ingredients on the boxes of marine salt in your local store might be worthwhile. You could also buy a box of Malawi salt mix, and add a quarter or half dose to each bucket of water. There are even "DIY" recipes for making Malawi salt mix using cheap chemicals (Epsom salt, bicarbonate of soda, Lo-Salt, etc.).

On the other hand, a relatively low-tech, low-cost solution is to simply install and undergravel filter, ideally a reverse flow system coupled to your existing aquarium filter. By creating a two-layer substrate with crushed coral at the bottom separated from a coral sand surface layer with a gravel tidy, you can make a very effective chemical filtration system without any risk of anaerobic decay. This is, of course, "old school" marine fishkeeping, but it works well in fish-only systems, be they brackish water, marine, or Rift Valley cichlid ones.

The alternative is to stuff one of the "compartments" in your canister filter with crushed coral or crushed oyster. Since these things dissolve slowly, there's no risk of wild swings in pH or KH. Moreover, your weekly water changes will "reset" the levels each time. The whole point of buffering is that it doesn't keep getting more alkaline -- once the pH reaches a certain point (around 8.5) the calcareous material stops dissolving. But if the pH drops, dissolution starts up again, at a rate proportional to the acidity. And that's the point: it inhibits acidification, while not causing an excessively high pH either.

All this said, for brackish water fish you don't need to be too concerned either way. They're adaptable. These aren't coral reef invertebrates. So if your fish is happy and healthy, and water chemistry is somewhere within the tolerated range, then your fish will be fine. There's plenty of evidence to the contrary in fact: the times brackish water fish have been bred seem to be associated with people either doing water chemistry changes, or else keeping them in conditions that "sound" wrong. Monos, for example, only seem to spawn in freshwater.

One last thought: do also bear in mind live sand dies in brackish water. In the process, it decays, and that lowers pH and uses up the carbonate reserve in the water.

Cheers, Neale

Re: Lowering pH in brackish tanks..

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:06 pm
by Stormylee
You can use bottled water during water changes it's lower than freshwater.

Re: Lowering pH in brackish tanks..

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:32 am
by kxebs
I see I didn't say anything about your answer.. You're great! :D It's a great help to understand more about how things work! Super! Thanks!

The aquarium salt I have is Instant Ocean from Aquarium Systems (head office in France). Don't know the exact readings, they aren't on the box also..