The Puffer Forum

Pufferpunk wrote:

short periods of ammonia spikes

??? I am very good about matching the temp, which would be the only difference between the new water & present water in the tank.

Your biofilter is off. For that short period of 10 mins there is a small spike while the water is lowering and before it is filling. For the sake of argument the last 20%. During that period the fish is at its most stressed moments. The last, 20% before and 20% after. During that phase there is no filter or equilibrium to balance the equation. During the last 10% of the draw that is when water is at its most toxic. You have an active fish, possibly in panic, and that is when the spike occurs.

Without seeing HOW you do the change, that is a typical scenario. Without adding new water to balance out the old, during the change, the equilibrium is off. As the water decreased the pollutants increase and vice versa. This is only if the fish is under stress aka panic mode. If it is not and relaxed the levels will not change too much.

I don't know how to explain this, but it is so multi-faceted that it is incredible. Water changes are not as simple as swapping buckets. Too much too quickly is bad. Too little too long is bad. You will find a rhythm in the testing.

My mother has a GF in a tiny aquarium (way over stocked) for over 5 years. Stability is the key. Keep it constant. Regular maintenance, regular water changes. Nothing extreme. Your GF is ill, I can understand that. You want to keep the water at its best. But I feel that too much change too quickly is in fact causing stress.

Large volume changes, when their is no significant difference in perameters other than organics, is trivial to all fish.* Riverine fish are sunbject of massive water changes per hour. Lake and flood plain fish are in effectively infinite water volumes when compared to tanks. Fish in tanks with old water and with watyer all but totally unrelated to source water are not under discussion here. DFon't try to teach your grandmother to suck eggs. So far as I am aware I asm one of the frst if not the very first to routinely and consistently warn hobbyists about OTS tank water restoration and provide guidelines for doing so without stress to existing stocks. Saying that there are touychy-feely reservations about large scale water changes in basically clean tanks is mythology. Belief does not enter ot such equations. Proof does. In other wors, show me the data. other wise I stand very strongly by the fact that folks making a lot of money from fish commonly and with 100% percent safety routinely do 100-200% percent partials daily to keep water pristine for breeders and young fry - those being the fish which IMNSHO and IME are the quickest to respond to shortcomings in water quality among healthy fish. Among unhealthy fish, the absolutely most delicate and precarious state of health is that of a fish in toxicity sufficient to cause symptoms of major organ failure, specifically liver and/or kidney failure, is a fish in treatment for dropsy. Zero daily change in water osmolarity is highly desirable, and the only way to do that is massive daily partials or fast flow-through (generally approaching or >100%daily).

*Nota Bene: Fish which are unaccustomed to tank manipulations my well be a special case. PP's fish are not unaccustomed to large percentage changes. You do have to consider personality and your routine care. Competent hobbyists are highly unlikely to do massive partials on tanks in OTS. That is one of the best ways known to shock existing stocks, even to death. But keeping the water pristine does allow for large scale partials.

Feeling are subjective. Science is not. Mysticism is fine in entertainments and imagination. But it is worthless as science. Medical treatments are factual, based on data, not on feelings. Show me the data.

What anyone "feels" is their own to deal with. What is prescribed as treatment should be based on fact and data, not ever on feelings.

FYI, I also have one goldfish. It was a feeder/cull. It lives alone in a 33XL. Its water is very close to my source water parameters. It is ~25 years old. It is doing just fine, even though it should be kept cooler (temperature in the low 70sF). Its water parameters are also stable. I don't think I really need to point out that this fish is 5x the age of your mother's. It really is not needed to state that longevity does indicate health. Or is it?

Last injection today. I'm not sure I got in right, I think it went under the fin instead of into the muscle. He's really swollen today...

Sorry to hear that PP. We are still pulling for you though.

RTR wrote:FYI, I also have one goldfish. It was a feeder/cull. It lives alone in a 33XL. Its water is very close to my source water parameters. It is ~25 years old. It is doing just fine, even though it should be kept cooler (temperature in the low 70sF). Its water parameters are also stable. I don't think I really need to point out that this fish is 5x the age of your mother's. It really is not needed to state that longevity does indicate health. Or is it?

No you are correct in that statement. My mother's GF is the most ragged and pathetic fish you can conceive. But it does go to show that these are some of the strongest and hardiest fish one can keep.

In you case, are you doing 90% water changes weekly for your fish? Comparing professional breeder setup to hobbyist tanks is not a fair comparison. OTS (old tank syndrome) isn't the issue here. 50% weekly water changes will be more than enough to correct that issue. 55% will start to revert it. That is a non issue.

Maybe we're not reading this in the same light. In some aspects I do concur. The cleaner the water for an ill fish the better. It is just the procedure of draining the tank 90% and then refilling it I can't, won't and never, will agree with. It is just too much at once. There are alternative methods to accomplish the same water change levels without draining a tank until it is 3" from the substrate. Too much, too soon, too fast. And no, pro breeders don't go that far in a single shot.

If we're talking about that kind of volume, we have to explain the methodology / technique / procedure. There should be a "how to" do a large volume water change without draining the tank actually 90% all at once. Doing so, IMO, is asking for death to knock at ones door some day.

90% changes are typical though when keeping discus. Some do them daily (many do it all at once) and others do it once/week (all at once). Discus are notorious for being a bit difficult and get stressed out easily but they do fine with these changes. I think that as long as the changes are done regularly there isn't a big issue. I do about 70-80% changes each week and haven't had any issues. The fish are used to it, they don't care.

Bettas kept in small tanks often get many large water partials, sometimes 100%. You can keep both bettas and discus in breeding condition doing these large water changes.

This topic reminds me of this video (I would never do this to any of my fish, I don't think any of us would):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWMnPZKJWaE

that is worse than I would treat any fish

And I am sure their mortality rate is pretty high.

My goldfish does not have dropsy, it does not need 90% partials. It gets 50% partials weekly, and periodically (one to three months) gets 2-3 of those in one week to guarantee no drift in parameters. I am not a commercial breeder and do not keep Discus in any case, I don't care for personally.

I do breed some Cichlids and my pure strain of Dwarf Neon Rainbows. They get that same level of care, but only seasonally. The incoming water winter season, which lags behind the weather seasons by some weeks due to the lag in ground cooling and warm-up is off-cycle for breeding in my tanks. The fish get much less rich and live foods and that is the time for rearranging and tank re-doing. Some breeding still occurs, but much less than the "warm" seasons. I have no need for radical water changes routinely. But I have done such without any issues in the past, and coached plenty of hobbyists through OTS recovery and even attempts at saving dropsy-affected fish - that last with a vet setting the guidelines. That last does not IME have a very high success rate, as PP is fully aware. But plenty of hobby discus breeders and all the commercial Discus breeders I have known have done massive water changes routinely for those few fish species which seem to require it. I have never seen any signs of stress from those fish.

To me subjective feelings of negative effects of properly handled large scale water changes are absurd. They have no basis in reality. Folks are frightened off irrationally because they have heard too many horror stories of attempts at correct of OTS conditions causing fish deaths - which are fully valid fears. But OTS tanks are by definition unhealthy tanks, not ever well-maintained tanks with water parameters very near source water supplies conditions. Those are not comparable tanks. They cannot be discussed together.

Just how many water changes per hour do you thin the rainforest tropicals get in the wet season? You might be astonished. There is no downside to water changes in well-kept tanks. In not-so-well kept tanks there are hazards. In the privacy of your home it pays to be honest with yourself. But fear of water changes went out of fashion with Dr. Innes, and that was well before your time.

Whoever is working in the Lucky fish farm sure are the luckiest workers around.. Cant say the same for the fish... Those jets of water seems to be equivalent of the water cannons used on protesters...

He's not gonna make it... I don't know what else to do for him. other than to keep the lighting low. He's still eating & swimming upright but more swollen than ever.

Can you talk to your vet again and try another round of the meds or a new one?

The vet is only the supplier of the meds, not the adviser. I emailed the GF supplier who has been advising me, asking what I can do next.

A lot of people have success using epsom salt for the swelling and maracyn 1&2 for the treatment. Do you think that treatment would help him at all?

Been using Epsom, along with 2 tsp/g of regular salt & high temps, as per my GF advisor. Maracyn isn't nearly strong enough.

Also, maybe this is worth a shot. This person says they've treated a number of Goldfish who had dropsy this way. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1muxhJdwTE