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Re: Need help with stalled fishless cycle
Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:09 pm
by geronimo69
RTR wrote:Nitrate is the end product of conventional bacterial "nitrification" (thus the name - the smallest nitrogen-containing organic waste product (ammonium ion, NH4+) is oxidized in two steps first to nitrite ion (NO2-) an then to the nitrate ion (NO3-). The first two forms are highly toxic to most vertebrates, the third and final step - nitrate ion - is still toxic, but far less so than the earlier ones. These two oxidation steps can provide energy for certain bacterial species. We cultivate certain strains of those bacterial to detoxify this waste in our tanks to the less toxic - nitrate - form.
The total nitrogen cycle is much broader than the tiny section that we use routinely. There are many pathways available for "removing" nitrate ion from our tanks, from simple removal (water partial changes) to utilization (veggie filters, algal beds, or the use of other photosynthetic life forms) or by bacterial reduction back to nitrogen gas (DSB, plenums, coil denitrators, microporous media, etc.).
How we handle nitrate varies widely from hobbyist to hobbyist, and is even more varied in nature.
HTH
RTR - Sometimes I have to wonder if you have posts saved on your cpu, ready to paste in the proper thread
The way I take care of nitrates is by 50% WCs a week.
Re: Need help with stalled fishless cycle
Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:25 pm
by c333davis
c333davis wrote:Ok. It looks as though the ammonia is clearing within 12hrs, but the nitrite is taking longer than 12 hrs to clear.
1/6/2011 5pm........0 / 0 / 20... I dosed 2cc ammon to see how fast it clears
1/6/2011 8:30pm....0.5 / >.5 - <1 / 20
1/7/2011 10am......0 / 1 / 40
I can keep testing it every few hours to see when the nitrite has cleared.
Still waiting for the nitrite to clear...
1/7/2011 3pm......0 / 0.5 / 40
c333davis wrote:After that, I can do an 80% WC. Do I then dose it again and retest?
I'm just concerned about introducing my puffer to the tank when the nitrite takes more than 12hrs to clear.
Anyone have recommendations on this earlier question?
Re: Need help with stalled fishless cycle
Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:49 pm
by RTR
You have a huge range of options on nitrate. My personal choice would likely be a 24/7 lighted marcoalga refugium. Fast-growing algae eat a lot of nitrate plus other nutrients and the units tend to generate nice 'pods for export to the tank (if the return is not powered).
Sizing the refugium is a function of the waste generation/production level of the display and is iffy until the setup and specimen(s) are mature. Don't be shocked if you have to upgrade later.
MY second choice would be a high-flow or high-current plenum. But that is another and larger sump/refugium.
Do you see how I get into so many multi-tank/refugigia setups?
HTH
Re: Need help with stalled fishless cycle
Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:37 pm
by c333davis
I'm still wondering about the nitrIte, tho...
I added the ammonia around 5pm yesterday, and by 3pm today, it was still at 0.5...
That seems too slow to me... but then, what do I know? LOL
Re: Need help with stalled fishless cycle
Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:43 pm
by jmiller
When you first dose your 2cc ammonia what ppm does that make?
Re: Need help with stalled fishless cycle
Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:07 pm
by c333davis
An hour after I added 2cc, the ammonia level registered at 1ppm.
Re: Need help with stalled fishless cycle
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:25 am
by Pufferpunk
If you still have nitrite, your tank still isn't cycled.
Re: Need help with stalled fishless cycle
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:05 pm
by c333davis
The levels did already zero out. When I dosed it again, the ammonia cleared within 12 hrs but the nitrite took longer, more like 24 hrs. That seems like it'd be too long for my puffer (haven't added him yet)... so I'm wondering whether I should do a 80% wc, then dose with ammonia again to... I'm not sure... get more nitrite-converting bacteria to develop...?
Anyone else think that 24 hrs is too long for the nitrite to clear?
Re: Need help with stalled fishless cycle
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:22 pm
by jmiller
I was always told to take it up to 4ppm on the initial dose and once it can clear both (ammonia/nitrite) in 24 hours drop it down (just learned recently) to dosing 2ppm until it can clear both in 12 hrs. Once you get the 0/0's in 12 hrs continue for a couple extra days to be sure then you're ready.
Since you have all those Cichlids I would do a massive media "squeezing" from those tanks to kick start everything.
FYI I've cycled my last 5 tanks that way and it has taken an average of 3 weeks from start to finish.
Re: Need help with stalled fishless cycle
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:52 pm
by Pufferpunk
Why don't you just follow the articles we have on fishless cycling here? It says to dose daily at 5ppm, until ammonia starts dropping & you see nitrite. Then you cut that dosage in 1/2 daily & continue until you see 0 ammonia & 0 nitrite.
Re: Need help with stalled fishless cycle
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:15 pm
by c333davis
pufferpunk wrote:... continue until you see 0 ammonia & 0 nitrite.
jmiller wrote:Once you get the 0/0's in 12 hrs continue for a couple extra days to be sure then you're ready.
I first saw 0 ammonia & 0 nitrite on January 4; however, while the ammonia's clearing in 12hrs, the nitrite isn't. I'll continue to feed with ammonia at the quantity/frequency y'all suggest until the nitrite clears in 12hrs.
I remember RTR saying that the nitrite-converting bac takes longer to grow; I also remember RTR saying some circumstances can retard the development of that bac and it'll never develop well thereafter... hope I haven't caused that in this tank.
jmiller wrote:Since you have all those Cichlids I would do a massive media "squeezing" from those tanks to kick start everything.
Won't do me any good... cichlids are in FW; this tank has LR and is at 1.024sg. Any bacteria from the squeezing wouldn't survive the salinity.
Maybe I'll get Bio-Spira to add when I add my puffer. (I now realize that I added it too early in the cycle last week.)
Thanks for staying tuned!
Re: Need help with stalled fishless cycle
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:21 pm
by Pufferpunk
B-S is a good starter bacteria for a fishless cycle but you already have that bacteria in your rock. That was live rock right? From an established tank?
Re: Need help with stalled fishless cycle
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:30 pm
by c333davis
Yep, 8.5lbs live rock straight from the LFS tank. In fact, I've started noticing hitchhikers from the LR... I have a thread (
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=25569#p275271) in the Marine Tank forum asking about some of the hitchers.
I thought about the Bio-Spira only because of the suggestion that I squeeze some media from my cichlid tanks. I'll hold off for now, and keep feeding the tank and checking levels.
Re: Need help with stalled fishless cycle
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:37 pm
by Pufferpunk
I have a feeling that rock wasn't cured well.
this tank has LR and is at 1.024sg
Shouldn't this be in the SW forum?
Re: Need help with stalled fishless cycle
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:53 pm
by c333davis
pufferpunk wrote:Shouldn't this be in the SW forum?
LOL. Yes, these days, that's where this thread probably belongs.
When I asked my original question on 12/22, I was trying to fishless cycle the tank as BW. You and J-P and Chris convinced me of the wisdom of raising the salinity and adding LR.
