The Puffer Forum

Nick wrote:I agree that they look close enough, but the differences in how they thrive seem to monkey wrench that idea. Perhaps they are upriver FW - downriver brackish/salt water variations on the same fish, with a full spectrum of "in between" fish with varying SG tollerences in between?

Oh man! That would be nuts and nearly impossible to pinpoint who needs what without testing lol. I'm kinda of hoping its a little easier than that.

Pufferpunk wrote:I think they look close enough to be the same species.

I do too, they look almost identical, its just little tiny things about them that stump me. Belly changing and such. I have seen young and old alike and some can .. others can't... so here I sit thinking WTF ?! lol. All I can think of atm is salt....

Perhaps we need to try fin ray counts? The SG requirements are definately different, it seems like there SHOULD be something more definitively different than a trend in SG preference.

Pufferpunk wrote:I know Hilly's prefer FW, what is Umb keeping his in?

Freshwater. I tried adding a little bit of salt, to make slight brackish. He perked up a little and showed amazing colors...then he went into yuk mode. lol, seems to me like entering brackish is like smoking cigarettes for them. Feels nice and good for like 5 seconds, but when its all over, you only hurt yourself. Dunno. >.<

So he went back to FW, was fine for like 2 weeks, then the IP's killed him....he stopped eating. I just couldn't seem to rid him of the IP and I tried a ton of stuff. It got to me force feeding him, then him just spitting it out. He refused to eat.

You think maybe Hilly's is a young one and mine was just extremely old ? Or something like that .

Nick wrote:Perhaps we need to try fin ray counts? The SG requirements are definately different, it seems like there SHOULD be something more definitively different than a trend in SG preference.

Good call. I will see what I can find here.

Hilly has a pretty darn big one, I don't think it's that young... here is some HIGH RES Shakespeare, for counting pectoral fin rays.

Umbrella wrote:

Pufferpunk wrote:I know Hilly's prefer FW, what is Umb keeping his in?

Freshwater. I tried adding a little bit of salt, to make slight brackish. He perked up a little and showed amazing colors...then he went into yuk mode. lol, seems to me like entering brackish is like smoking cigarettes for them. Feels nice and good for like 5 seconds, but when its all over, you only hurt yourself. Dunno. >.<

So he went back to FW, was fine for like 2 weeks, then the IP's killed him....he stopped eating. I just couldn't seem to rid him of the IP and I tried a ton of stuff. It got to me force feeding him, then him just spitting it out. He refused to eat.

You think maybe Hilly's is a young one and mine was just extremely old ? Or something like that .

Mine was in brackish for a year since I got him, never had any isues with it. Started at 1.004, went up to 1.010, no change varied it after that betwen 1.004 and 1.007, no affect. Finally settled on 1.004 until I took it down to fresh this year.

I doubt mine is young, he's just over 6" which was the size he was when I got him, when you look at the average size GSP's and Ceylons on here the majority are a lot smaller that that. I can only assume at the size he is that he's several years old.

I did a fin ray cout when I got him and they concur with fin ray counts on a Sabahensis, only problem is that the Fluviatilis family fin rays have very little difference in counts betwen them and there is a crossover of number of rays. So even that is inconclusive.

Since we posted on this topic last, we've had a couple of experiences worth conveying.

- We tried both raising and lowering the PH slightly from our tap water norm of about 6.8-7.0. In both cases the fish seemed to dislike the new pH. Alternatively, perhaps they disliked the dissolved solids from the phosphate buffers used in the Seachem products Neutral Regulator, Discus and Cichlid buffers. In fact, every time we've added anything to their water including salt and Prazi Pro (a common anti-fluke & -worm product) the fish have seemed droopy (more often have dull color, sleep more, black bellies, etc.) until the next water change. One of them even started loosing interest in eating the week we had Prazi Pro in the water. This fish was back to normal the day after the next water change. PraziPro is ~5% Praziquantel a medication with a reputation for being very well tolerated by fish. On the other hand, Prazi Pro is a thickish syrup, which means the stabilizing agent used in the medication must be present in sufficient quantity to thicken the liquid. What the bulk stabilizer does to the oxygen carrying capacity of the water is hard to say.

- We are also getting the impression that our T. sabahensis candidates dislike nitrate in their water even at 30-40 ppm (=mg/l). If we miss one of our weekly 75% water changes (we used to change only 50%) they seem to start drooping.

- We forgot to plug in their heater after a water change leaving the fish at 65 degrees F for 4-5 days. The jumpiness we commented on in another thread subsided and both fish seemed to like the cooler water!? Worrying about potential digestion problems we raised their temperature back up to about 75 degrees F. Is it possible these fish like sub-tropical water temperatures?

I recall reading a post from one experienced pufferkeeper who stated that his puffers seemed happiest at 72F. According to fishbase T. sabahensis is demersal (bottom dwelling). Typically temperature drops as depth increases. If T. Sabahensis comes from inland rivers it is also possible the water is glacial or spring fed and is perhaps cooler than the tropical environment might suggest.

---

One thing that is noteworthy about chemicals in solution such as salt, buffers, medications, and nitrate is that they all reduce the oxygen carrying capacity of water. This is also true of higher temperature. It seems that a lot of people have had trouble getting their T. sabahensis-like fish to adapt to the aquarium. I'm wondering if Umbrella's fish, the fish we lost and others weren't so much sick as suffering from less than optimal environmental parameters. Medications like Prazi Pro, which is supposed to be extremely safe, could lower oxygen further. Could it be that these fish prefer cooler water and/or require extremely soft clean water, but will tolerate a non-optimal environment if otherwise healthy and not under stress.

The above is all pretty speculative and is perhaps completely wrong, particularly if it disagrees with what other people here have observed with their fish. What do all y'all think?

-Robert

Umbrella wrote:
Freshwater. I tried adding a little bit of salt, to make slight brackish. He perked up a little and showed amazing colors...then he went into yuk mode. lol, seems to me like entering brackish is like smoking cigarettes for them. Feels nice and good for like 5 seconds, but when its all over, you only hurt yourself. Dunno. >.<

So he went back to FW, was fine for like 2 weeks, then the IP's killed him....he stopped eating. I just couldn't seem to rid him of the IP and I tried a ton of stuff. It got to me force feeding him, then him just spitting it out. He refused to eat.

You think maybe Hilly's is a young one and mine was just extremely old ? Or something like that .

Umbrella's description of color changes when salt was added is similar to what we observed. Good at first, but later the fish seemed unhappy. What was rather surprising about this is that the addition of a small amount of salt, 1 tsp/5 gal to 1 tsp/gal or so, is often suggested as an adjunct to treatment to reduce stress in salt-tolerant fish. It reduces physical stress on the fish by reducing the osmotic potential at injury sites and across the gills.

Hilly wrote: I doubt mine is young, he's just over 6" which was the size he was when I got him, when you look at the average size GSP's and Ceylons on here the majority are a lot smaller that that. I can only assume at the size he is that he's several years old.

All 8 puffers we've seen for sale in LFS with the ring shaped spots were sold at about 6"+ size. Seven of the eight were labeled as puffers with the word "Burmese" in the common name and were said to be fresh water fish. One was offered as a GSP and was in brackish water in the store (I think). Out of the many hundreds of smaller (usually much smaller) green colored puffers with spots we've seen for sale in LFSs, we've noticed none having donut shaped spots. One LFS has had a Tetraodon abei for sale in fresh water. The fish in this store was very hard to see due to plants, but what we could see of its head was similar in appearance to a GSP and perhaps 4 inches long. According to fishbase 4.5 inches is adult size for T abei, which Fishbase also says is a fresh water puffer.

Which fin rays are counted in a fin ray count? Here's one of ours.

I counted top and bottom dorsal fin rays.

An Abei IMO looks nothing like a GSP it looks like this and a 4" Abei is a big Abei. Click im my gallery in the Abei section did it look anything like it.

In terms of morphs of Fluviatilis family, I received some pics from a member on here (Sean) when I got mine and was researching and since he sees more rare puffers than all of us.... he delivered the goods.

I have temporarily put them in an album for perusal. Have a look at marking variations.
Album
have a quick look but PLEASE DO NOT post them up on the forum as I havent got permission to do that.

VERY interesting album. I see a couple pictures that seem very gsp like and a bunch that much more resemble Sabahensis.

wow they look very much like the BW puffers at London Aquarium that I had trouble Id_ing a while back

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiRb5XEexgY

http://www.flickr.com/photos/stuandkala ... 577568104/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/stuandkala ... 577568104/

They had them labelled as Ceylon I think, which is wrong for sure

FishFan wrote: - We forgot to plug in their heater after a water change leaving the fish at 65 degrees F for 4-5 days. The jumpiness we commented on in another thread subsided and both fish seemed to like the cooler water!? Worrying about potential digestion problems we raised their temperature back up to about 75 degrees F. Is it possible these fish like sub-tropical water temperatures?

I recall reading a post from one experienced pufferkeeper who stated that his puffers seemed happiest at 72F. According to fishbase T. sabahensis is demersal (bottom dwelling). Typically temperature drops as depth increases. If T. Sabahensis comes from inland rivers it is also possible the water is glacial or spring fed and is perhaps cooler than the tropical environment might suggest.

---

One thing that is noteworthy about chemicals in solution such as salt, buffers, medications, and nitrate is that they all reduce the oxygen carrying capacity of water. This is also true of higher temperature. It seems that a lot of people have had trouble getting their T. sabahensis-like fish to adapt to the aquarium. I'm wondering if Umbrella's fish, the fish we lost and others weren't so much sick as suffering from less than optimal environmental parameters. Medications like Prazi Pro, which is supposed to be extremely safe, could lower oxygen further. Could it be that these fish prefer cooler water and/or require extremely soft clean water, but will tolerate a non-optimal environment if otherwise healthy and not under stress.

The above is all pretty speculative and is perhaps completely wrong, particularly if it disagrees with what other people here have observed with their fish. What do all y'all think?

-Robert

I think you may be on to something there - I'll look at the temps of my tank and such. Our only problem is I lost the truely unique one . Whichever the true T. Sabahensis might be ( Mine, hillys, yours ) I honestly believe that these fish Originate from the place that is within their name. Just like Palembangensis come from Palembang... which is a place in Malaysia.

So... taking a gander in google earth at the waterways of the region that I believe they originate or were first found ( Sabah, Indonesia ), I found a few places that might be where we could find them. They obviously can swim up and down waterways finding themselves in more different locations after the initial find.. but since the first was found in Sabah, it got named after it ? There are almost no references as to where they come from and the pages on fishbase that are supposed to list where they are collected is conveniently not working ( maybe its a top secret fish lol ). So here are the locations I saw:

Lake Poso : Sulawesi, Indonesia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Poso
Lake Landu : Sulawesi, Indonesia (smaller lake to the northwest of Poso, sadly there is no info on it )

I only say they might be here because one of the few references mentions they are in a book ' Freshwater fishes of West Indonesia and Sulawesi. If anyone has this book, please share with us the information on page 175 it looks like ?

Though looking at how it is just a bunch of Islands, there is no reason why they cant be in both locations ( If at one time the islands were closer together ) Both locations being the cited 'Sulawesi' and also the place their name bears 'Sabah'.

Other possible lakes they could be in:

Lake Tempe : Southern Sulawesi, Indonesia
Teluk Parepare : I have no idea wtf this place is but it has a peninsula that looks like it could mesh FW + SW in a protected area. It is directly West of Lake Sidenreng.
They could be in Palu Bay, which is on the northern part of the island. Or even in the Palu River, which empties into the bay.
Danau Lindoe : Appears to be a lake.
Lake Sidenreng : Lake NW of Lake Tempe

They can come from anywhere up in there really. Hard to pinpoint without documented catches. I'm just guessing.

The largest city on the Sulawesi Island is Makassar. My guess would be that Mr. Kottelat would have been in the largest city (the most technologically advanced) in order to document these fish. Also, I would guess that any ornamental fishes would probably depart from this city. ( being that it is the center of everything ). I could be wrong, I dunno.

I am going to see if I can contact my friend who lives in Indonesia and see if he knows anything about them. I'm not sure what his exact location is though. Even though with the power of Google Earth we can PROBABLY just ask some peoples over there if they wouldn't mind giving us a clue.

Thoughts ?