The Puffer Forum

Just chipping in, am not to experienced with puffers HOWEVER all fish will continually grow throughout their lives, and i have kept them for a long time now.
I cant remember who said it, but they were correct when saying THEORETICALLY fish can grow to that size in aquaria, however all fish possess proteins which can be excreted in unsuitable conditions. This protein "stunts" the grow of other fish within the area. Whilst at current there is no distinguishable evidence that this is majorly bad for the fish, it suggests it also stunts their life, by inhibiting natures intent. I wont bore you all with the details but stunting grow can occur in only slight over stocking. Whilst its true all fish are different, so whilst people have seen porcupine puffers over 19" its possible that by natures choice the puffer you get won't grow that big. However you can never know that unless he is on his own in a tank, which is where if you so choose you can experiment. If he is on his own in the 200l then its possible to watch his growth, however since its been seen with these fish in 21" on the conservation trip from my college, i would suggest that you accompany the size of the fish from the beginning purely for the just incase scenario. I would suggest at least a 450l tank for this puffer fish, maybe more if you still wanted to try your clowns in with him as well. You need to look for a tank which the puffer can occupy at full "sea" size rather than aquaria size, as in an ideal world both should be the same.
Whilst am no puffer expert, tbh i doubt i could even pass as an amateur on puffers, i know how to look after my fish and you need to do alot more research first into this fish, you need to attend to the full size of the fish can grow now just the size you have seen. If you have been told 19" is the size people have seen then you need to prepare for that just incase, if you can't afford it, then unfortunately this fish isn't for you. You might have your heart set on it, but sometimes we have to make do.

trekenk wrote:Hi Daffydase. What I don't understand is why you sold/selling your 350 lrt tank and have got a 300 lrt instead. Both are not large enought but why go backwards.

How are you cycling the new tank?

the 350 was a trigon and looked odd in my room, the 300 is a rio and is a long tank so sits better

trekenk wrote:

daffydase wrote: and all this i have, my skimmer is very good, i have live rock, £11.00 a kilo i spend £200 so you do the math on that. coral sand, powerheads, and filter for floss and phos remover, as i have been advised by EVERYONE i have spoken to. syill only the 1 person who has SEEN a 19" pp in an aquarium then.

I am crap at math but I am pretty sure that only works out to 40 lbs you need alot more than that. 2.2 lb pre kilo x 18 = 39.6 lIs.

Is this live rock cured?

yes it is all live cured rock, all from lfs. how much more would you say i would need in your opinion?

TheProfessor is correct that many fish generate and release proteins which suppress the growth of conspecifics - commonly seen in grow-out tanks. But unless you are housing multiple specimens of the same species or at least genus, that should not be an issue in a singleton tank. But suppression of growth in a singleton in an inadequately sized tank is the result of other factors, which include pollution levels, inadequate exercise, and others. Self-generated growth retardants do not effectively affect the dominant fish releasing them, so cannot apply to singletons. Pollution and lack of normal exercise appear to be the biggest factors in tank stunting of singletons, and it starts early. Effective skimming with good water management in SW species should block that possible effect in any single specimen adequate setup in any case.

Another big issue on terminal size is that post-puberty growth rates are tiny in relation to immature growth rates, so if fish mature in too-small tanks, they are unlikely to ever reach wild size, even though they do continue growing throughout their lives. Several of us who are web old0timers used to know (on another site, long before TPF) a guy who got Clown Loaches to >3/4 wild size in 18-24 months. He held that if he did not, they would never make it to full size. I do believe him, as I have experienced similar results with other fish.

That all means that the common hobby practice of "moving up in tank size as the fish needs it" is a pretty good technique for stunting fish. How many hobbyists have ever seen a full-size Clown Loach? Or T. mbu, or even T. lineatus?

TheProfessor wrote:Just chipping in, am not to experienced with puffers HOWEVER all fish will continually grow throughout their lives, and i have kept them for a long time now.
I cant remember who said it, but they were correct when saying THEORETICALLY fish can grow to that size in aquaria, however all fish possess proteins which can be excreted in unsuitable conditions. This protein "stunts" the grow of other fish within the area. Whilst at current there is no distinguishable evidence that this is majorly bad for the fish, it suggests it also stunts their life, by inhibiting natures intent. I wont bore you all with the details but stunting grow can occur in only slight over stocking. Whilst its true all fish are different, so whilst people have seen porcupine puffers over 19" its possible that by natures choice the puffer you get won't grow that big. However you can never know that unless he is on his own in a tank, which is where if you so choose you can experiment. If he is on his own in the 200l then its possible to watch his growth, however since its been seen with these fish in 21" on the conservation trip from my college, i would suggest that you accompany the size of the fish from the beginning purely for the just incase scenario. I would suggest at least a 450l tank for this puffer fish, maybe more if you still wanted to try your clowns in with him as well. You need to look for a tank which the puffer can occupy at full "sea" size rather than aquaria size, as in an ideal world both should be the same.
Whilst am no puffer expert, tbh i doubt i could even pass as an amateur on puffers, i know how to look after my fish and you need to do alot more research first into this fish, you need to attend to the full size of the fish can grow now just the size you have seen. If you have been told 19" is the size people have seen then you need to prepare for that just incase, if you can't afford it, then unfortunately this fish isn't for you. You might have your heart set on it, but sometimes we have to make do.

thanks for the input, i have spent 2 days more looking for more 19" porccupine puffers, unable to find more than 2 but found 7 other keeps on other forums, so i am keeping him in this 300l tank, he is now in the tank,he is housed with a hairy hermit, 4 rock hermits, 10 mixed snails, 1 cleaner shrimp, he is very calm and soes love the shrimp jumping all over him, before anyone says yes i am aware he will chomp most of these one day but a small clean up crew atm will make my life easier atm, he has fed on river shrimp and cockle, for now i will study his growth rate and continue to research the species, my clowns are now in my girlfriends reef tank so he is the only fish in it, i may put a tomato clown in with him over the next month or so but ill see.

Sounds good to me. Whilst its still based a lot on personal opinion i respect what your saying but would advise you that you may need to upgrade soon so just be prepared. In all honesty i have noticed with fish that if they dont attack things they should in the first month or so, they tend to be placid. However puffers i have read that many reviews that they could turn anytime, so again be prepared to save the clown if needed quickly.
Any good luck and look forward to any updates/pics you post

daffydase how did you cycle the tank?

trekenk wrote:daffydase how did you cycle the tank?

I took all the water 190 litres and rock and coral sand from my trigon added another 110 pre mixed water from the lfs, was told that's ok its just like doing a big water change! No cycle or spikes so all is good! My friend loves him and wants one aswell but think he has decided on a dogface, lfs told us dogface will be ok in 260 litres juwel vision all his life, that ok?

That'll work for the cycling.

They need about 400L as adults.

TheProfessor wrote:Sounds good to me. Whilst its still based a lot on personal opinion i respect what your saying but would advise you that you may need to upgrade soon so just be prepared. In all honesty i have noticed with fish that if they dont attack things they should in the first month or so, they tend to be placid. However puffers i have read that many reviews that they could turn anytime, so again be prepared to save the clown if needed quickly.
Any good luck and look forward to any updates/pics you post

I tried to post pic but don't no how? My hairy hermit loves chasing him at night and he seems to enjoy it aswell! Clowns are in my girlfriend reef he is only fish, was thinking of adding a choc ship star seen a lot of people recomending these with puffers and a tomati clown as they are abot more aggressive than normal clowns

Pufferpunk wrote:That'll work for the cycling.

They need about 400L as adults.

Dogface need 400", how big have you seen um? I see a lot of people saying they get bigger than porks, but pufferpedia says 33cm I'm bad at math is that around 13 inch? That true? Or they get bigger? The one in lfs in black with striped belly and spots, like a stars and stripes puffer but he is a dogface! How big would he get?thanks

You should check out our Pufferpedia for some of those answers.

Also: http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/calc.php

Pufferpunk wrote:You should check out our Pufferpedia for some of those answers.

Also: http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/calc.php

Yeah I looked said 33cm I think that equates to around 13 inchs? 350 litres 100 us gallons! So 260 should be fine for a year, was trying to find the growth rate I saw an inch a month is to be expected but just curious if its true seen a lot of info online that says oposite to each other...

There is no significant difference between 380 liters (approximately 100 US gallons) and 400 liters, especially if sump is added to either.

If you want a full-sized fish, keep it in a full-sized tank.

Within the last years I - for myself - have developed serious doubts about the maximum size of Diodon holocanthus given by fishbase and some other sources (likely based on fishbase). This fishbase number is not based on measured fishes (by fishbase or associated scientists), but was simply taken from the book: Robins, C.R. and G.C. Ray 1986 A field guide to Atlantic coast fishes of North America, which itself does not let us know where this number comes from.

Based on measurements of properly identified fishes it appears that 14-15" (a number confirmed by Randall) is more realistic at least for females and as an extraordinary maximum. 12 inches (30 cm) is the general maximum size in my opinion. I am not aware of reliable (!) measurements of larger fishes of this species and they are not rare at all.

For what it's worth my suggestion to explain larger literature numbers are wrong IDs of D. hystrix, a fish that easily passes past 2 ft. I've seen many wrong IDs for both D. holocanthus and D. hystrix in books as well as fish imports and on the internet. Sometimes they can look alike.

As anecdotal references I know two D. holocanthus (a species I also imported myself by the way) in largish tanks, one around 750 gallons, one should be around 2000 gallons. Both were very small when captured and despite what I consider proper care never grew larger than 11 inches over the years.

That said, even for a 12-14 inch D. holocanthus I personally would not use or recommend any tank smaller than 125 gallons for a single specimen with no tank mates (which is really pushing it and will require very good filtration and maintainance routines) and rather aim at something beyond 200-300 gallons.