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Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:32 am
by Paul Fox
Corvus wrote:If you dose 3times it is no difference.
It makes no difference adding three times the amount, it will always be 5%.
Its like 9 carot gold, no matter how much more gold you add, it will never be 24 carot gold
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:36 am
by Corvus
Of course it makes a difference. When I add 1 spoon of flubenol 5% to the food it is much less Flubendazole, than when I add 1 spoon of flubenol 15%.
When adding to the water you aim for a concentration, but not when adding it into the food. In the latter case you aim for a specific dose.
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:39 am
by Paul Fox
It makes no difference at all, like I said, if you have a 9 carot gold bar and add two more bars, you do not have 27 carots, you still have 9 carots, just more of it.
Trust me, I am right
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:43 am
by Corvus
You are right with your gold but not with the med.
It's really simple:
Say I add 1 g of Flubenol 5 to a piece of food. Then it has 0.05 g of Flubendazole.
Then I add 1 g of Flubenol 15 to another piece of food. This one it has 0.15 g Flubendazole.
Quite a different dose, ain't it?
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:44 am
by Paul Fox
No you are wrong....
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:48 am
by Boxermom
Its my understanding and experience that intestinal parasites can only be killed by the fish ingesting the medication. Treating the water doesn't do anything. And since they are usually highly contagious, all fish in the tank need to be treated in order to completely irradicate the parasites.
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:53 am
by Corvus
Paul Fox wrote:No you are wrong....
Imagine two bars of gold. One has 5 carat, one has 15 carat. Which one has the higher total am mount of gold? (1 carat= 4,16625% gold).
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:58 am
by Paul Fox
Boxermom wrote:Its my understanding and experience that intestinal parasites can only be killed by the fish ingesting the medication. Treating the water doesn't do anything. And since they are usually highly contagious, all fish in the tank need to be treated in order to completely irradicate the parasites.
Mostly right.
Flubenol 15 works by being attracted to the gill rakers of the fish where it is ingested into the fish and hence killing the parasites. It has a special ingredient to do this.
Flubenol 5 is usually mixed with acetone or dmso to make it water soluble, then it gets into the gill rakers by default as its in the water. It is not strong enough to kill all parasites as said, hence why its illegal in this country to use it for aquatic use.....
Most IP problems are highly contagious and yes, its a good idea to treat the whole tank.
Corvus, I might actually know what I am talking about as
http://www.flubenol.co.uk is my site and I know the manufacturer. I have also exchanged mails with Dr Peter Burgess about flubenol 5 (if he remembers) and he expressed his concerns about the public using meds approved for animal use being used in aquatic sutuations....
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:05 am
by Corvus
Just because you sell the stuff intended for treatment of the entire tank does not mean treatments via food does not work.
If I add 3 parts of Fl. 5 to a piece of food or 1 part of Fl. 15, the amount of Flubendazole is the same.
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:19 am
by Paul Fox
Corvus wrote:Just because you sell the stuff intended for treatment of the entire tank does not mean treatments via food does not work.
If the fish is eating, yes it might work, but how would you know how much to dose??
Corvus wrote:If I add 3 parts of Fl. 5 to a piece of food or 1 part of Fl. 15, the amount of Flubendazole is the same.
if you do as you say, you are still adding 5% flubenol, just three times the amount and its still only 5%.
Thats why you cannot over dose F15, apart from the fact it doesnt effect fish, even if you have a 2000 gallon pack, chucking it all in a 20 gallon tank will still only have it at 15%
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:42 am
by Corvus
Paul Fox wrote:if you do as you say, you are still adding 5% flubenol, just three times the amount and its still only 5%.
5% is a percentage and not an amount. The fish will eat the piece whether it has 3 drops Fl. 5% or 1 drop of F. 15%. It gets the same amount of Flubendazole. If you feed, it's about the amount.
Paul Fox wrote:That's why you cannot over dose F15, apart from the fact it doesn't effect fish, even if you have a 2000 gallon pack, chucking it all in a 20 gallon tank will still only have it at 15%
The LD50 (lethal dose for 50% of mice in tests) of Flubendazole given by food is about 2.6 g/kg bodymass.
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:25 am
by Paul Fox
I just asked the manufacturer to explain why it cant be over dosed and why you are wrong about adding three times the usual amount of flubenol 5, hope this makes it clearer
Flubendazole is a compound and an end product, so in base terms it's at its final stage, and remains the same whatever you do to it. So in real terms however much 5% flubenol you put into water it will always be 5%, it doesn't have a cumulative effect like formalin or malachite or anything similar, it's not toxic, so again however much you add its not going to poison fish or anything. If you put a 50:50 mix of petrol and water into your car, however much you put in, it will never be pure enough to run your car, it will always be 50% water. The usual scientific answer is like comparing it to another finished compound like 9ct gold, however much you add to something it will always just be more 9ct gold never anything higher.
Basically all this misconception comes about as people aren't realising it's a compound and a finished item, like 9ct gold, they are looking upon it as a transit element like formalin or whatever which have the properties to be cumulative. Flubendazole isn't water soluble, so it cannot build up in percentage in water, and its effect is only directly proportional to its initial input value. 100% flubendazole isn't toxic to anything above invert classification, however much you add, unless it's so much that the fish gets covered in powder and can't open its gills!!!!!
Bottom line toxins like formalin are poisonous, so the more you use, the more quickly it kills, flubendazole interupts certain receptor functions stopping the parasite from uptaking certain nutrients and therefore it starves to death, the higher the percentage the more damage is done to the receptors, it is not quantity dependent above the minimum level, below a certain percentage, receptor damage is limited, and failure comes about. Flubendazole treatment is a bio-chemical process, so concentration, not quantity is what counts. At 5% certain flukes can build up a resistance, hence why so many pond keepers get fluke outbreaks on a regular basis when dose at only 5%.
Hope that helps a bit, we're going outside of basic fishkeeping and into bio-chemistry here, another example is the same as comparing drinking water with 1% chlorine in it, however much you drink you aren't getting technically poisoned, but bump the chlorine up to 10% and lots of damage happens even at low drink levels................
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:43 am
by Corvus
Sorry the logic behind your arguing - as explained above - is wrong, since I am talking about food that is ingested and the actual amount of flubendazole in it. I've worked many years in chemistry also with regard of water chemistry/quality, made a phd and worked in university research. So I know, too, what we are talking about.
100% flubendazole isn't toxic to anything above invert classification
flubendazole is poisoneous to mice in the dose I have given in the last post. That's a fact. You can ask any serious (non company related) toxicologist about that.
Flubendazole treatment is a bio-chemical process, so concentration, not quantity is what counts.
With your logic I could eat 1000s of headache pill, which have 15% of a specific ingredient. When you feed the stuff it's about the amount, when you put it in you tank about the percentage.
Happy selling, though, I understand the product has to be recommended and defended against equal alternatives. I think your product is good, but the reasoning above is not.
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:46 am
by Paul Fox
I will pass on your comments to him, although I should point out, we keep fish in water in our tanks, not mice......
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:00 am
by Corvus
Thanks.
I did not mean to offend anyone and if I wanted to treat a tank and had nothing else, I'd rather use F15 than F5, but if I'd like to use a med by food most of the common flubendazole (aside others) products will work in adequate doses.
Here are some references to what I said
Manger, B.R. (1991): Anthelmintics In: Veterinary Applied Pharmacology & Therapeutics (GC Brander, DM Pugh, RJ Baywater & WL Jenkins, eds) Baillière Tindall, London (UK); 513-548.
Van den Bossche, H., Rochette, F. & Horig, C. (1982): Mebendazole and related anthelmintics.
Adv Pharmacol Chemother 19; 67-128.