The Puffer Forum

How long are you doing the freshwater dips?

Is the puffer in a QT or are you removing the puffer and doing the baths and returning to the display tank?

Are you giving the triple sulfa as well??

The freshwater dips were done for 25 mins (so far only this morning). Right now we are moving Tiki between quarantine to do the dips and antimicrobial treatments, and then back the the tank. He is the only fish in the tank and today was the first day we began to possibly suspect ich or another parasite disease. We began treating the display tank with LifeGuard by Instant Ocean. I don't know if you know it but it says it treats ick, oodinium, fungus, bacterial gill disease, mouth and fin rot, and ulcers (the active ingredient is 1-chloro, 2,2,5,5-tetramethyl-4-imidazolidinone). We really want to treat this thing aggressively although we're not quite sure what we're dealing with so we wanted to try something that covers many areas (hence this Life Guard treatment, the freshwater dips, and yes we did give him a Triple Sulfa bath as well). Do you think this is too much? We were keeping him in a 30 gallon quarantine to begin with but he seemed very stressed out in there and more relaxed in his usual tank. Do you think this is ich?? The pictures are very poor quality, but these white spots are very clear and obvious and are spread throughout the gills, not just on the edges. His gills are also very red.

Thanks for your help again

PS. I don't know if I mentioned this in my first email or not but Tiki is a 9.5" porcupine puffer (he was 6.5" when we first got him a year ago). Despite not eating on his own he does not yet appear to have lost any weight and still looks 'thick'

PPS. Today our water parameters were:
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 40
pH : 8.0-8.3

You really need to get those nitrates <20, to prevent further stress to the fish & it's immune system.

Can't see much on the picture. If the spots are salt grain like: Cryptocaryon (marine ich.), if they are really tiny and and numerous: probably Amyloodinium (marine velvet).

Ich can be treated successfully and with good results with hyposalinity. An excellent library article covers everything one needs to know about that.

I never was able to treat Amylo. Someone else should suggest a treatment, if this diagnosis is supported. Watch out if the tiny spots occur on the body, too. It usually starts at the gills.

I agree with PP that the nitrates are bad and may even contribute to this puffers problems or be a source of it.

Good luck with Tiki!

Elevated nitrates can be a chronic stressor but they usually rise slowly over time. Ammonia and nitrite spikes are far more stressful......

High nitrates are not the cause of disease process or pathogens - the pathogens (bacteria, parasites, etc) have to be introduced into the tank. This is done by not quarantining, feeding live food, sharing equipment/unwashed hands between tanks, etc.

No pathogen introduction - no disease. Stressors (fluctuating water parameters) can weaken an immune system and leave the puffer vulnerable to pathogens.

At this point all energy/time should be aimed at eliminating potential parasites as this can interfer with oxygenation, increase metabolism rate which further increases oxygen demand and weaken the immune system.

If the spots look like salt granule - probably ich. If it is a "dusting" - velvet - amyloodinum ocellatum. Velvet progresses quickly and can kill a puffer in less than 24 hours.

Hyposalinity OR copper will work for ich.

Copper is the only effective treatment for velvet. Hyposalinity WILL NOT work for velvet.

Doing baths and returning the puffer to the display tank with the pathogens will reinfect the puffer. I am very leery of products that claim to cure all ailments....bacteria have to be "killed"/treated with antibiotics - non of the ingredients in the Life Guard are gram negative antibiotics......hmmmm. Exposure to all of these products is risky and not to mention stressful.

I would limit my treatment to Cupramine in a QT and antibiotic baths.
Just my 2 cents.

Stressors (fluctuating water parameters) can weaken an immune system and leave the puffer vulnerable to pathogens.

This is what I was referring to.

Hi again

I wanted to post an update on Tiki. Water paramaters now are ammonia: 0, nitrites: 0, nitrates: 15 (and we're doing water changes every day to get them lower), pH: ~8.3. We have been treating him with freshwater dips of 20-25 min to try and reduce these white spots we have seen on his gills and we have also been giving him 1 hour antibiotic baths in kanamycin (we did this for 7 days) and now Triple Sulfa (for 2 days now) to try and take care of the bumps on his nose. Using the freshwater dips we have noticed his breathing isn't as hard as it was before we started, but as of today he is keeping one of his gills closed and only breathing out of one. I read on wetwebmedia that puffers can do this, but he has never done this before so we're a little worried about him. Well to be honest we're more than a little worried since he really hasnt seemed to be responding to any treatments so far. He also hasn't eaten voluntarily in 8 days. We were trying to force feed him but he kept coughing everything out so last night we tried anesthetizing him with clove oil and force feeding him which kind of worked except once he woke up again he coughed out some of the food. So. Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions? After the freshwater baths we have been putting him back in the display which I KNOW is bad if this really is ich we're dealing with but he seemed so stressed in the 30 gallon trash bucket we are using as a quarantine. So I guess I'm wondering: is the use of only one gill a common occurrence with ich infestations? should we continue the freshwater baths and if so should I add methylene blue to the water? Also do you think it would be unwise to 'operate' on these bumps on his nose (by maybe cutting them with a sterile razor blade-we did try poking one with a sterile syringe while he was anesthetized hoping to be able to get a bit to maybe culture (we are both microbiologists) but could not pull anything out, it seemed too viscous)? They seem very swollen and I just really really want him to get better and although he doesn't look skinny or anything, I feel like his problems keep compounding and may be getting worse.

I feel like I just have no idea what else to do
Thanks for any suggestions
I will continue to keep everyone updated

I just re-read puffer queen's last post. Is methylene blue less effective than copper as a treatment? I was just wary of copper since some people say it's not good to use on puffers, even though I'm aware others have used it with success.

By doing the freshwater baths with methylene blue you may dislodge some of the feeding stage of the parasite - unfortunately when you return the puffer to the display tank there are free swimming and cyst stages of parasites waiting to reinfest him - this is a no win situation.

Cupramine copper is safe for puffers and sensitive fish like angels and butterfly fish. Like any treatment - hyposalinity, antibiotics, etc - if not monitored - extremes - too high or too low of any treatment can kill. I have seen/heard of more people killing their fish with improper hyposalinity and antibiotic overdose than treatment with cupramine. The other thing to consider is the ones that said "the copper killed my fish"......was the fish too far gone when the treatment was initiated and would have died even without the treatment????

You are stressing your puffer out by continuing to do the freshwater baths and then reinfesting him - this stress can weaken the immune system and allow the bacteria to proliferate and the antibiotics will not work.

Stress, parasite and bacteria infection can cause anorexia........need to eliminate as many as possible. Both the parasites and the bacteria infections are the biggest source of stress at the moment.

What size needle were you using to try and aspirate the bump for culture??

We've moved Tiki into a 30 gallon quarantine tank now permanently while we continue his treatment and we'll let the display tank run fallow for probably 8-10 weeks to ensure the parasites are eliminated.

We tried using a 26 gauge needle to pull fluid from his nose

I picked up Copper Tru (Kordon) at the LFS today. It was the only copper medication available

Keep up the good work! With PQ's guidance I think your puffer can make it.

Is that a chelated copper?
What test kit do you have for the copper?

A 26G needle is too small - If you attempt it again - need at least a 20G to withdraw abscess material (pus).

The bottle says its a 0.12% copper ion solution. The test kit I found says its the Fresh and Saltwater Copper Test kit from Marine Enterprises International.

Is it bad to have a protein skimmer on the QT tank while giving him copper treatments?

According to Kordon:

"PRODUCT DESCRIPTION:

The copper ion (free copper) in Kordon's Copper Tru) s widely used for the treatment of the two most serious marine protozoan parasites, Oodinium ocellatum and Cryptocaryon irritans (Marine Ich and Velvet). These parasites are commonly found on newly acquired fishes. If not controlled, they can cause extensive mortalities. The use of copper ion for the control of these parasites has been well established, and is still considered the drug of choice for treatment. Copper Tru, when used as directed at a concentration of 0.15 to 0.2ppm, is safe and effective in the control of these dangerous parasites. "

Careful monitoring of this type of copper is necessary as it is not stable.

"The following procedures are suggested for marine fishes. A copper ion (not chelated) test kit is necessary to monitor copper in the water in order to assure the proper therapeutic dosage for the successful control of the parasites"

Need to make sure this is the correct copper test kit - measures nonchelated copper.