salivator puffer

Post by **Hilly** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:37 am

Rocker wrote:I can understand your theory but I would have to disagree. Puffers such as these need to establish territories and patches of their own. The female more so. Putting them in undersized conditions is not best practice IMHO.
We would never recommend that for dwarf puffers so why a salivator. Like all the Carinotetraodons thet are extrememly aggressive whether they are the male or female of the species. Good idea with adding many females but to confine them to very small spaces will bring out aggression in the females as well. To me there is no substitute for space. 5 in a 35g is not such a good idea whatever the sex are.

It's still all theory at the moment until I can test it. There undoubtedly would be aggression between the females but the question is how much, its getting the fine balance between enough space so the females dont squabble too much between each other and so there is not enough space for the male to single any out.

If it fails at least observations can be documented down and others can learn from it, if there is a margin of success the same can be applied. This would also be my final attempt with this species, if this doesnt work then I will move them on.

Troender · Post by **Troender** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:43 am

My lovely Jack the Ripper got his name from killing his wife. Luckily that was before I bought him. But they were only that pair in a not so big tank. I don't know how he behaved before the other pair (which Taly owns

) was sold. It seems like he has a bit of a mr. Jekyll and mr. Hyde personality, because he has seemed rather timid after he came to my house. Or, he was until I moved him into a tank which was standing higher in the room, so that he could see my face when I pass it. I must have an ugly face, because he shows more aggression now

I don't have any experience with aggression with my irrubescos - well, not yet. They've been in a tank too small for a while, but i moved them into something bigger last weekend.
What I've experienced with my puffers is that when they are in an overcrowded tank, they actually show less aggression. I've posted a question about that earlier, I think. When they show less aggression, it doesn't mean that they are OK with it, though. I think the too-small-space is rather stressful for them, and that they just have to be careful in order to survive in that situation. So if it seems to work in a small tank, it doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do. It's easy to think that way, though, if you see more aggression when giving them more room.

Post by **Hilly** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:58 am

Troender wrote:What I've experienced with my puffers is that when they are in an overcrowded tank, they actually show less aggression. I've posted a question about that earlier, I think. When they show less aggression, it doesn't mean that they are OK with it, though. I think the too-small-space is rather stressful for them, and that they just have to be careful in order to survive in that situation. So if it seems to work in a small tank, it doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do. It's easy to think that way, though, if you see more aggression when giving them more room.

I agree with what you are saying in part, multiple puffers in tanks often show less aggression as they are unable to establish territory.

But which is the lesser of 2 evils if you are trying to keep multiple Salivator, overstocking the tank, maintaining water quality and getting some sort of harmony or putting them in a large tank which is adequate to house them and watching them kill each other. If overstocking doesnt work and neither does providing lots of space for multiples are there any other options left than to keep them as solitary specimens.

Rocker · Post by **Rocker** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:50 am

I have a group of irrubescos which i have kept for two years, 3 females with one male and there were no deaths and very little aggression. there are also a pair of dwarf puffers in the tank with them. although i do not know their sex. they were in a tank that was between 25 and 30 gallons. the water quality did not suffer. I wouldnt say carintetraodons are extremeley aggresive when talking about irrubescos.

I had two females together with 14 dp's for 2 1/2 years nearly 3. One of the females killed 7 Dp's and a loach. I moved the two females to their own tank and added a male. She killed the male first then the female. I would say that was aggressive. Another member here has had similar experiences with irrubesco.

although I am sure there are exceptions. I think that the salivator may benefit from being in an overstocked tank. They certainly are not cramped in there imo. a 35 gallon tank is not a very small space.

The exception would not be that they are aggressive but rather that they could cohabit. IMO the 35g is way too small and not what the forum as a whole suggests. However as I said you are entitled to your experiments but rather you than me with such an expensive puffer.

You may not recommend it for dwarfs but they are a different puffer. And i expect that there isnt enough information on these fish to decide what is best practice.. yet. Who knows, it could go wrong. When or if it does then at least I know and can change the situation

Dwarfs are not different puffers in this sense. Males will attack males. Females will attack females and males and females will attack each other no matter what the species. The ideal is to give them enough space to reduce this aggression. That is partly the reason for the forums idea on Tank sizes.

As for enough info, it is coming through all the time. the market has been flooded with salivator and they are becoming more and more popular mainly due to the availabilty and vast numbers that are now available.

taly · Post by **taly** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:00 am

I had my irrubesco in a 35l tank!
The LFS sold me 3females and one male for my 35l tank... I trusted them because I had no idea what puffer was

My irrubesco never hurt each other, But it never crossed my mind to just leave them there.

poffer · Post by **poffer** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:32 am

had two females together with 14 dp's for 2 1/2 years nearly 3. One of the females killed 7 Dp's and a loach. I moved the two females to their own tank and added a male. She killed the male first then the female. I would say that was aggressive. Another member here has had similar experiences with irrubesco.

Wel that does sound like an aggressive irrubesco. However I think that yours may be an exception. I agree that most if not all puffers are territorial, but to claim these irubescos are extremely aggressive would be a slight overstatement. I would label puffers like the fahaka or green bottle puffers as extremely aggressive as they in most cases do not tolerate any tankmates. Irrubescos are well documented to be puffers that can be kept together, with people even keeping them with other tankmates.

The exception would not be that they are aggressive but rather that they could cohabit. IMO the 35g is way too small and not what the forum as a whole suggests. However as I said you are entitled to your experiments but rather you than me with such an expensive puffer.

Therefore in the case of the irrubesco I do believe that the aggresseve ones are the exception. The forum could be wrong about the salivators as there are few who have experiences with this particular puffer. For example it seems the salivator remains active during the day and evening. and inactive late at nite. This puffer is not a large puffer and with water conditions being maintained I just dont understand your theory that 35g is a way to small tank. This is not an experiment, I am keeping these puffers as a normal fishkeeper and how I think it will work best.

Rocker · Post by **Rocker** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:52 am

The irrubesco of mine is not an exception. I have sat on the forum for years and too on other forums. My collective knowledge is gained from others who too have had aggressive irrubesco. So no mine is not an isolated incident nor is it the exception. All i am trying to pass on is the knowledge I have gained. i do not sit here and make it up lol.
Similar with tank sizes. They were put together collectively By the mods here. Again they are not a number plucked out the air. They are based on experiences.So if the forum recommends 29g per puffer then the maths would say that 5 in a 35g is way too small. Again keeping this species myself I would agree.But it is your perogative all I am trying to do is offer my best advice and echo the forums advice on tank sizes.

poffer · Post by **poffer** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:15 pm

Rocker wrote:The irrubesco of mine is not an exception. I have sat on the forum for years and too on other forums. My collective knowledge is gained from others who too have had aggressive irrubesco. So no mine is not an isolated incident nor is it the exception. All i am trying to pass on is the knowledge I have gained. i do not sit here and make it up lol.
Similar with tank sizes. They were put together collectively By the mods here. Again they are not a number plucked out the air. They are based on experiences.So if the forum recommends 29g per puffer then the maths would say that 5 in a 35g is way too small. Again keeping this species myself I would agree.But it is your perogative all I am trying to do is offer my best advice and echo the forums advice on tank sizes.

In the opinion of the forum it is way too small. fair enuff. Looking around here though it does not seem to me that many own these salivators. I dont know how many mods do. But 20 gallon per puffer for the salivator is not a number that has been produced from years of experience. Its an assumption based on other puffers and maybe a little over precaution.

Rocker · Post by **Rocker** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:24 pm

You can never be over cautious with puffers IMO.
Admittedly the data was supplied prior to much knowledge being gather but was based on other similar Carino's and now supported by those that do own them.

Troender · Post by **Troender** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:29 pm

There are several on this forum that owns salivators (it seems to me that a lot have them, but I guess that is due to me noticing it, as I have one myself).

I haven't had mine for many weeks, but I already have made some experiences. I have one salivator in 22 G, and I would never dream of putting one more puffer into that tank (or rather, I dream about it, but know that would be silly). 5 in 35 G seems rather silly to me. That would be risking life and health of the fishes. Not only because of the risk of one puffer killing the other, but also because I don't think the fishes would have a good time in that environment.
Jack is not my most active puffer, but he most certainly needs the space in the tank! And I wish I could give him more. The tank he lived in in the shop, was something about the same size, and heavily planted. But it wasn't enough to stop him killing his wife. I love my puffers too much to risk their lives on something that may or may not go well. I just don't want to experiment on it, knowing that at least Jack is capable of killing.

And, yes, I do base this knowledge a bit on my experience with other puffers. But I see no difference in their personality that would make me trust one puffer more than the other. With Jack already being a murderer (as the only one of my puffers), I think he absolutely is no more to trust than the other puffers species.

So I think that you are wrong in thinking that there are little experience with this puffer species, and I most certainly respect the experience of all the other puffer owners on this forum. They know what they are talking about!

Post by **Hilly** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:09 pm

I think one productive thing to come out of this thread is that does everyone agree that a single pair of Salivator generally doesn't work, there obviously could be exceptions to the rule but in varying tank sizes single pairs seem to ultimately end with the death or injury of the female.

Ripper · Post by **Ripper** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:29 pm

I apologise for hi-jacking the thread but didn't think a new one was necessary when this one is here.

I am about to be the proud owner of a single female salivator. The problem is i'm picking up the tank (60 litre) tomorrow and it will obviously need to be cycled and for this i shall be using safe start which, i have on very good authority works wonders.

Obviously, just incase, i don't want to be cycling my tank with a puffer in, cos i'm not stupid! (too stupid anyway)

I am thinking of buying a little ancistrus so that there's a fish in the tank to make the safe start work, then keeping an eye on the water till it's right for the puffer.

This is where the question comes in, just how aggressive are they? Would the puffer be a danger to the ancistrus? Or if there were plenty of caves would it be ok?

Rocker · Post by **Rocker** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:45 pm

This species so far only seems to be agressive to its own. I have tried an ancistrus in with mine and although it is very early days he is not the slightest bit interested in it. I introduced the ancistrus about two months ago.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:51 pm

Hmm, I do not believe Safe Start is useful, reguardless of the authority with which it's touted. Is it refrigerated? You know a "live bacteria" product that's stored at room temperature won't work. The bacteria in it may have worked just fine when it left the factory, but sitting at room temperature or higher in warehouses, then for weeks on the shelves, has assured that it's all dead and won't help you. So unless the supplier keeps it cold the entire shipping path, it can't help. It will take several weeks to cycle the tank however you choose to do it, and there will be no algae for the bristle plec as it will be a new tank, so you will have to suppliment it's diet. It's also a gamble on if it will be tolerated once the puffers is added, so even if it survives the tank cycling it may have to be rehoused.

Ripper · Post by **Ripper** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:43 pm

The shop i'm on work experience at today had a visit from the manager of hagen in UK and a guy from canada who designs their products and had a hand in the production of cycle, the hagen version of safe start if you will. And according to him they are "pretty much exactly the same" and "work wonders" and i even asked him that very question about it not being refrigerated and he said it doesn't make a difference, so i am inclined to believe him heh.

Even still, i ain't gonna try it with the puffer, hence the ancistrus! And if it doesn't work out the shop will take it back no problem.

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