Black Discoloration on one of my fish
Forum rules
Read this before posting!!
Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.
1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.
2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.
3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)
4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.
5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.
We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.
While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.
Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
Read this before posting!!
Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.
1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.
2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.
3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)
4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.
5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.
We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.
While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.
Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
is there any kind of algae eating fish for brackish water?Phaedrus wrote:Before adding any marine mix you'll have to take the pleco out. He won't appreciate the salt one bit. Turning him into a store for credit may be the best idea.
Do you not use tap water?[/quote]
God no, bottled water, the kind that's like ozonated and filtered. that's the only reason I'm not doing a change now, I'm out.
-
Pufferpunk
- Queen Admin
- Posts: 32976
- Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 11:06 am
- Gender: Female
- My Puffers: Puffers I have kept:
T lineatus
T miurus
A modestus
T biocellatus
C valentini
C coranata
C papuan
C lorteti
DPs
suvattii
burrfish
T niphobles - Location (country): USA, Greenville, SC
- Location: Greenville, SC
- Contact:
I agree, the darkness is nothing more than a stressed puffer, which is in it's own way, very bad. You need to remedy the overstocking--and I mean as soon as possible! You have enough fish there for a 55g tank & that's if the fish are all <2".
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...
"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
-
Pufferpunk
- Queen Admin
- Posts: 32976
- Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 11:06 am
- Gender: Female
- My Puffers: Puffers I have kept:
T lineatus
T miurus
A modestus
T biocellatus
C valentini
C coranata
C papuan
C lorteti
DPs
suvattii
burrfish
T niphobles - Location (country): USA, Greenville, SC
- Location: Greenville, SC
- Contact:
-
Phaedrus
- Former Staff Member
- Posts: 1402
- Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:34 pm
- Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
- Contact:
Agreed. I stand by my second post.
Water changes will at least lessen immediate danger from poisoning, but it must be stressed that it doesn't solve the problem of overstocking.Phaedrus wrote:Your fish are also incompatible. F8s are low-end brackish, and GSPs are high-end brackish to full marine. And plecos are strictly freshwater.
If at all possible, find some temporary homes for these fish until you can get a proper tank (or tanks setup). That 29 gallon would hold 2 F8s or 1 GSP.
-
YBeNormal
- Former Staff Member
- Posts: 506
- Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:19 am
- Location: Northern Virginia
- Contact:
I agree. Disease, aggression, death and stunted fish are guaranteed with stocking levels like that. The fact that the fish require different water parameters doesn't help and it's all downhill from here. It's time for some hard decisions and fast action. You need to either buy more (and larger) tanks, get rid of some fish, or both.
If you decide on more tanks, you will want to quick cycle them using Bio-Spira (not any of the miracle products pushed by the LFS).
If you decide on more tanks, you will want to quick cycle them using Bio-Spira (not any of the miracle products pushed by the LFS).
--Bob
-
Boxermom
- Former Staff Member
- Posts: 2182
- Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:34 pm
- Location: Wisconsin
- Contact:
Unless there's something wrong with your tap water, plain tap water should be fine as long as you treat it with a declorinator such as Prime.imweip wrote:God no, bottled water, the kind that's like ozonated and filtered. that's the only reason I'm not doing a change now, I'm out.
Tina
Puffers: Auriglobus silus x1, Tetraodon travancoricus x1, Tetraodon turgidus x1, Tetraodon miurus x1, Tetraodon nigroviridis x2, Tetraodon baileyi x2, Tetraodon lineatus x1, Tetraodon palembangensis x1
Puffers: Auriglobus silus x1, Tetraodon travancoricus x1, Tetraodon turgidus x1, Tetraodon miurus x1, Tetraodon nigroviridis x2, Tetraodon baileyi x2, Tetraodon lineatus x1, Tetraodon palembangensis x1
Thanks for the suggestions. My tap water here is pretty bad, it turns the toilet, and bathtub pink after a couple weeks. I don't know what causes it, but it's best not to mess with that stuff.
I am not well versed in the ways of the puffers as most of you have pointed out, but I'm curious about the logic behind one GSP for a 30 gallon tank. I was always told approximately 1or 2 gallons per inch of fish. I'm guessing this doesn't apply to puffers, but why not? It seems stupid to have a 30 gallon tank for a 6 inch fish. Mine right now are all smaller than 2 inches BTW. I think these numbers might be a *bit* overexagerated. I wanted less puffers in this tank, but I kept letting my wife buy them. I figured after 3 that would be more than enough, because everything she said she saw online said they get to be 2 inches long. But then again we were told they were DP's. However, the sites she was getting info from (I have no idea, this is what she told me) showed pictures of the GSPs, and said there that they need aquarium salt. But they are wrong, whatever, or are they.
Basically what I'm getting at, is the tank I have may not be optimal conditions for a puffer, and I'm sure if you put ANY fish in a tank that's 3000 times bigger than it, it will do extremely well. How attractive of a tank is that though? A huge tank with one fish... it's not so fun. My puny little 10 gallon tank has been a fine home for these 5 fish for about 6 months. Here you all are telling me it's drastically overstocked, and these fish are doomed, but they have been alive for 6 months like this? They have all doubled in size as well, I should add, so how is it that drastically overstocked? The water is always clear, there is never any algae, and we hardly do anything to it. Yeah, the 6th fish probably pushed us over the edge, but it was fine until then. Is there a site, or guide, or something written that not only backs up these numbers you all are telling me, but explains why a puffer needs so much more water than a goldfish, which is possibly the nastiest (in terms of ammonia production, that I know of, I'm sure I'm wrong too... feel free to correct me) fish alive?
I'm not trying to be a negative nancy, or look down upon all the advice given, I just don't want to devote a gigantic tank to my little puffs that have been fine doing the complete opposite of what you all are telling me I should have been doing. For an overstocked toilet of a tank that I have, I must have the most resilient puffers in the world. Aside from the one that is sick, the other 4 are healthy, active, and beautiful. I'd take pictures of them, but they don't sit still long enough for my camera to catch them.
I am not well versed in the ways of the puffers as most of you have pointed out, but I'm curious about the logic behind one GSP for a 30 gallon tank. I was always told approximately 1or 2 gallons per inch of fish. I'm guessing this doesn't apply to puffers, but why not? It seems stupid to have a 30 gallon tank for a 6 inch fish. Mine right now are all smaller than 2 inches BTW. I think these numbers might be a *bit* overexagerated. I wanted less puffers in this tank, but I kept letting my wife buy them. I figured after 3 that would be more than enough, because everything she said she saw online said they get to be 2 inches long. But then again we were told they were DP's. However, the sites she was getting info from (I have no idea, this is what she told me) showed pictures of the GSPs, and said there that they need aquarium salt. But they are wrong, whatever, or are they.
Basically what I'm getting at, is the tank I have may not be optimal conditions for a puffer, and I'm sure if you put ANY fish in a tank that's 3000 times bigger than it, it will do extremely well. How attractive of a tank is that though? A huge tank with one fish... it's not so fun. My puny little 10 gallon tank has been a fine home for these 5 fish for about 6 months. Here you all are telling me it's drastically overstocked, and these fish are doomed, but they have been alive for 6 months like this? They have all doubled in size as well, I should add, so how is it that drastically overstocked? The water is always clear, there is never any algae, and we hardly do anything to it. Yeah, the 6th fish probably pushed us over the edge, but it was fine until then. Is there a site, or guide, or something written that not only backs up these numbers you all are telling me, but explains why a puffer needs so much more water than a goldfish, which is possibly the nastiest (in terms of ammonia production, that I know of, I'm sure I'm wrong too... feel free to correct me) fish alive?
I'm not trying to be a negative nancy, or look down upon all the advice given, I just don't want to devote a gigantic tank to my little puffs that have been fine doing the complete opposite of what you all are telling me I should have been doing. For an overstocked toilet of a tank that I have, I must have the most resilient puffers in the world. Aside from the one that is sick, the other 4 are healthy, active, and beautiful. I'd take pictures of them, but they don't sit still long enough for my camera to catch them.
-
Boxermom
- Former Staff Member
- Posts: 2182
- Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:34 pm
- Location: Wisconsin
- Contact:
A dog will survive in a small cage for awhile, too. May even look healthy for awhile. But you can't honestly think that its a good situation or healthy for it, or that you aren't shortening its life span by years by keeping it a small cage living in its own filth.
Its the same with fish. Yes it might survive for awhile and yes it might look healthy but you are definitely shorting its lifespan and are not treating it humanely. Fish deserve the same humane treatment as any other pet. You are forcing your fish to live in not just not-optimal conditions but IMO deplorable conditions.
A healthy GPS living in a healthy environment can live well in excess of 10 years. And it gets to be about six inches long. In addition, it is going to require full saltwater/marine conditions whereas the F8s need brackish water and the pleco is freshwater. That's three different tanks of varying sizes.
IMNSHO, when you own a fish, its no different than when you own a dog or cat. You are responsible for providing it the best situation possible so that it can be healthy and live a full life. Anything less, to me, is cruelty.
Its the same with fish. Yes it might survive for awhile and yes it might look healthy but you are definitely shorting its lifespan and are not treating it humanely. Fish deserve the same humane treatment as any other pet. You are forcing your fish to live in not just not-optimal conditions but IMO deplorable conditions.
A healthy GPS living in a healthy environment can live well in excess of 10 years. And it gets to be about six inches long. In addition, it is going to require full saltwater/marine conditions whereas the F8s need brackish water and the pleco is freshwater. That's three different tanks of varying sizes.
IMNSHO, when you own a fish, its no different than when you own a dog or cat. You are responsible for providing it the best situation possible so that it can be healthy and live a full life. Anything less, to me, is cruelty.
Tina
Puffers: Auriglobus silus x1, Tetraodon travancoricus x1, Tetraodon turgidus x1, Tetraodon miurus x1, Tetraodon nigroviridis x2, Tetraodon baileyi x2, Tetraodon lineatus x1, Tetraodon palembangensis x1
Puffers: Auriglobus silus x1, Tetraodon travancoricus x1, Tetraodon turgidus x1, Tetraodon miurus x1, Tetraodon nigroviridis x2, Tetraodon baileyi x2, Tetraodon lineatus x1, Tetraodon palembangensis x1
-
Phaedrus
- Former Staff Member
- Posts: 1402
- Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:34 pm
- Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
- Contact:
6 months is a short amount of time for a fish that will live for 15+ years. I can guarentee you that in their current conditions they will die one by one until the bioload has been reduced enough for that tank. The pleco might survive.
30 gallons may seem huge, but it's really not. A 6 inch fish needs a lot of room to swim. One fish in a 30 gallon can be very fun. Single puffers are very interactive with you when they are by themselves. They will come to the glass to greet you, and eat right from your hand.
A GSP will never grow to full size in a 10 gallon tank though. It will be stunted, meaning it's outer body ceases to grow, but its internal organs keep going. This will eventually prove prematurely fatal.
If you like the look of lots of fish, get some schooling fish that belong in groups, or be prepared to have a large tank. The 1 gallon of water per inch of fish rule only really applies to fresh water schooling fish. Each fish will have its own requirements. 30 gallons for a GSP is the base recomendation. Could you get away with 2? maybe. Would it be less optimal? absolutely.
Goldfish are very messy fish as well, and are notoriously kept in poor conditions. I'd say they are equal to puffers in their need for a large volume of water, not so much for swimming, but for waste management.
And to say they are "doing fine" is not exactly true. If it were, you wouldn't be here asking for advice on your sick puffers. I commend you for seeking out advice, but be prepared to get some answers you won't like to hear. There is an over abundance of bad information about puffers. This community has gathered together as much proven by experience and scientifically accurate information as we can find.
Will overstocking and poor water quality kill a fish outright? No, not right away. Fish are very adaptable to their water conditions, especially puffers, but eventually, being kept in poor conditions will weaken their immune system and they will eventually sucumb to an early death. That much I can guarentee.
It's unfortunate you were sold GSPs rather than dwarf puffers. Dwarf puffers would have been perfect for your 10 gallon. They stay very small and 4 or 5 of them could live happily in a 10 gallon tank with a few provisions.
If at all possible, I urge you to find homes for the GSPs and try to locate some actual dwarf puffers. They are strictly fresh water, stay very small, and are tons of fun to watch and interact with. GSPs have special requirements that must be met if they are to live long healthy lives.
30 gallons may seem huge, but it's really not. A 6 inch fish needs a lot of room to swim. One fish in a 30 gallon can be very fun. Single puffers are very interactive with you when they are by themselves. They will come to the glass to greet you, and eat right from your hand.
A GSP will never grow to full size in a 10 gallon tank though. It will be stunted, meaning it's outer body ceases to grow, but its internal organs keep going. This will eventually prove prematurely fatal.
If you like the look of lots of fish, get some schooling fish that belong in groups, or be prepared to have a large tank. The 1 gallon of water per inch of fish rule only really applies to fresh water schooling fish. Each fish will have its own requirements. 30 gallons for a GSP is the base recomendation. Could you get away with 2? maybe. Would it be less optimal? absolutely.
Goldfish are very messy fish as well, and are notoriously kept in poor conditions. I'd say they are equal to puffers in their need for a large volume of water, not so much for swimming, but for waste management.
And to say they are "doing fine" is not exactly true. If it were, you wouldn't be here asking for advice on your sick puffers. I commend you for seeking out advice, but be prepared to get some answers you won't like to hear. There is an over abundance of bad information about puffers. This community has gathered together as much proven by experience and scientifically accurate information as we can find.
Will overstocking and poor water quality kill a fish outright? No, not right away. Fish are very adaptable to their water conditions, especially puffers, but eventually, being kept in poor conditions will weaken their immune system and they will eventually sucumb to an early death. That much I can guarentee.
It's unfortunate you were sold GSPs rather than dwarf puffers. Dwarf puffers would have been perfect for your 10 gallon. They stay very small and 4 or 5 of them could live happily in a 10 gallon tank with a few provisions.
If at all possible, I urge you to find homes for the GSPs and try to locate some actual dwarf puffers. They are strictly fresh water, stay very small, and are tons of fun to watch and interact with. GSPs have special requirements that must be met if they are to live long healthy lives.
Last edited by Phaedrus on Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.