The Puffer Forum

Since RTR wrote that article, I'll deffer to him. He should be answering soon.

I feel the need to address your hysteria about 'half dose'

If we were talking about the use of antibiotics, then you would be correct. A half dose would potentially lead to antimicrobial resistance.

However, we are not talking about antibiotics, and I feel this is where you are painfully misguided.

Perhaps if the QuickCure bottle 'instructions for use' were described differently, you wouldn't be freaking out about something you obviously have no knowledge of... 'dose x ml per y litres for scaleless fish, double the dose for scaled fish'. See, no mention of half doses, freak out over.


Now, I'm off to work (Hospital Pathology Laboratory - MLSO Microbiology)

Never heard of parasitic resistence? The same concept works with a plethora of organisms, i.e.insects, parasites, etc. The surviving generation (which survives because of insufficient dosing of said chemical) is resistant to further treatment. I would expect someone of your caliber to know that.

First some FW Ich info: FW Ich is is basically a gill disease. Body and fin lesions are purely overflow. Some degree if gill scaring can be expected from those gill lesions even after the worse blockage from the active encysted lesions during infection. The gills can generate some new structure post-infection, but it is unlikely to ever equal the functional area of the gill prior to the infection. The reduction in functional gill area during the infection means that the gills cannot transport O2 as well as normal gill membranes. FW Ich is a temperate water parasite. At low temperate water levels, the life cycle may be weeks. At tropical temperatures ~80F, the life cycle hits it minimum of about 3 days, ~72 hours. Above that temperature the parasite's life cycle is disrupted. At 85-86F, the parasite's reproduction cannot occur normally and tends to fail. This effectively kills the parasite without medication by thermal interference with the normal reproduction process. In theory, ~10 days (~3 life cycles at 85-86F) can wipe out the parasite. Sodium chloride, NaCl, also interferes with FW Ich's reproduction. With temperature steady at 80F (the minimum life cycle period of 3 days), the same ten days with salt at and above 1 level teaspoon per gallon (*1*) should also destroy the parasite. Visible skin lesions may not be fully healed in that time, but no infectious particles should be present (*2*).
(*1*) One level teaspoon per measured gallon of tank water is the absolute minimum sodium chloride minimum dosage. This means effectively using the chemical supply house's sodium chloride bottling, totally dry and non-clumped. Any clumping means water uptake and less than 99+% purity. Grocery store table salt will also be slightly less pure but still fully acceptable for dosing. "Aquarium salt" is a meaningless tern - it has no legal or standard accepted definition, so I would never use that product unless it includes a statement of purity at or above 99% NaCl. No brand I have ever seen includes such a claim. Marine salt is not suitable. There have been many reports of strains (?) of FW Ich requiring more than 1 level teaspoon per gallon of water. Given the variability of operating tank volumes and measurement of dosage among other variables, this is a complex issue.
(*2*) Actual water volume of any hobby tank is undefined. In the USA, "nominal" tanks sizes are the 3D external measurements of the tank frame, rounded off to an essentially arbitrary number. The only reasonably accurate way to know tank volume is to actually measure it at set-up. Quit a few hobbyists use an arbitrary 70% of nominal tank volume, but there can be a substantial variation with substrate depth and particle size, density and mass of rockwork, internal and external filtration, etc. I have a 65. It does hold anywhere near 60 gallons, even with two external canisters.

I rarely to never treat FW with anything other than NaCl and heat, and have never used any other treatment for FW and/or BW puffers. None of those fish have ever, repeat ever, had a relapse of FW Ich.

HTH

Resistance is a biochemical process. It is not restricted to antibiotics. In theory it can be considered as a non-trivial part of evolution. Overcoming the historic temperature restrictions on FW Ich's ability to reproduce is certainly possible, but so far as I have seen, it has not been shown to date. I have to confess that I cannot access as much of the scientific literature as I once did, but if it had been shown, I would have expected to be told. That would have an immediate impact on the hobby industry.

I looked around and found some research information about this stuff from a database available through the University of Wisconsin-Madison, sodium chloride in low doses over an extended period (14+) of time has been shown effective in removing the cysts from the host. Combine that with daily water changes,vacuuming and cleaning of the decor should take care of your puff without needing the heat.


"RTR Resistance is a biochemical process. It is not restricted to antibiotics. In theory it can be considered as a non-trivial part of evolution. Overcoming the historic temperature restrictions on FW Ich's ability to reproduce is certainly possible, but so far as I have seen, it has not been shown to date. I have to confess that I cannot access as much of the scientific literature as I once did, but if it had been shown, I would have expected to be told. That would have an immediate impact on the hobby industry."

Also from what I found looking around they believe that based on biology and survival resistances are possible but no study has been conducted to see if it is occurring.

He appears to be holding steady with the heat at 80 degrees. It is good to know that this is an acceptable temperature for treatment. I will add an additional bubble wand this evening just to make sure the water is as oxygenated as I can get it, maybe then I will be able to raise the temperature a *bit* further. I do not think the salt itself is what is causing him distress so I will also add the additional salt that was in the directions.

My fish and I thank you all very much for the information.

The biggest hazard with Ich infections that I have seen is that chronic gill infections are possible. The external skin sites clear, but the unseen low-level gill infection persists. In that situation, outbreaks may occur whenever any added stress is present. The ongoing gill damage is quite hard on the fish. I suspect that such chronic infections seriously reduce the fish's ability to withstand any future oxygen level reduction.

I have the temp at 82 now with the additional oxygenation. I used the 70% ratio to measure my salt that you mentioned above and mathematically I'm at a teaspoon and a third per gallon. I kept the temp and salinity consistent during the water change and he is obviously better today, he's been roaming about his tank and even ate a shrimp. Thanks RTR! The information proved invaluable and may very well have saved my fishes life. I am going to keep him at 82 degrees with the same salinity for the full ten day treatment and watch him carefully in the future, but it looks good so far. He is no longer rubbing himself on everything in the tank or twitching in discomfort.

You all have my gratitude!

That is good to hear! It does sound like he is responding very well - likely most to the extra aeration, but that in itself is a major stress reduction. Keep a good eye on the fish during the slow reduction of the salinity. Keep use posted.

The ich treatment has been completed. I've been doing daily 50% changes to reduce the salinity, and slowly brought the heat down. It is soooooo nice to have a normal acting fish again. He is back to begging at the glass for food, exploring his tank decorations and sleeping in his tree vs burying himself in sand. I now have a very happy fat fish!

Yay!

Great news! Congratulations.

Great news, good job

RTR wrote:First some FW Ich info: FW Ich is is basically a gill disease. Body and fin lesions are purely overflow. Some degree if gill scaring can be expected from those gill lesions even after the worse blockage from the active encysted lesions during infection. The gills can generate some new structure post-infection, but it is unlikely to ever equal the functional area of the gill prior to the infection. The reduction in functional gill area during the infection means that the gills cannot transport O2 as well as normal gill membranes. FW Ich is a temperate water parasite. At low temperate water levels, the life cycle may be weeks. At tropical temperatures ~80F, the life cycle hits it minimum of about 3 days, ~72 hours. Above that temperature the parasite's life cycle is disrupted. At 85-86F, the parasite's reproduction cannot occur normally and tends to fail. This effectively kills the parasite without medication by thermal interference with the normal reproduction process. In theory, ~10 days (~3 life cycles at 85-86F) can wipe out the parasite. Sodium chloride, NaCl, also interferes with FW Ich's reproduction. With temperature steady at 80F (the minimum life cycle period of 3 days), the same ten days with salt at and above 1 level teaspoon per gallon (*1*) should also destroy the parasite. Visible skin lesions may not be fully healed in that time, but no infectious particles should be present (*2*).
(*1*) One level teaspoon per measured gallon of tank water is the absolute minimum sodium chloride minimum dosage. This means effectively using the chemical supply house's sodium chloride bottling, totally dry and non-clumped. Any clumping means water uptake and less than 99+% purity. Grocery store table salt will also be slightly less pure but still fully acceptable for dosing. "Aquarium salt" is a meaningless tern - it has no legal or standard accepted definition, so I would never use that product unless it includes a statement of purity at or above 99% NaCl. No brand I have ever seen includes such a claim. Marine salt is not suitable. There have been many reports of strains (?) of FW Ich requiring more than 1 level teaspoon per gallon of water. Given the variability of operating tank volumes and measurement of dosage among other variables, this is a complex issue.
(*2*) Actual water volume of any hobby tank is undefined. In the USA, "nominal" tanks sizes are the 3D external measurements of the tank frame, rounded off to an essentially arbitrary number. The only reasonably accurate way to know tank volume is to actually measure it at set-up. Quit a few hobbyists use an arbitrary 70% of nominal tank volume, but there can be a substantial variation with substrate depth and particle size, density and mass of rockwork, internal and external filtration, etc. I have a 65. It does hold anywhere near 60 gallons, even with two external canisters.

I rarely to never treat FW with anything other than NaCl and heat, and have never used any other treatment for FW and/or BW puffers. None of those fish have ever, repeat ever, had a relapse of FW Ich.

HTH

should the grocery store table salt be iodized, un-iodized, or does it matter?