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Re: GSP is still sick, fighting an uphill battle here.
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:53 pm
by Dadof4
The Maracyn is utter BS for this problem and will contribute to this fishes demise. So far through out the thread there has only been mention of ICH at the onset as the reason for adding Melafix, never has a fungal infection been mentioned. Maracyn is a broad spectrum antibiotic that is used to treat gram positive bacteria on the surface of an organism and has little to no systemic uptake. In other words if you do this you are treating the skin, the fish absorbs too little (even at full strength) to do any good with IP's. I feel it will only cause stress and, even though it's targeted at gram positive bacteria, possibly interfere with the continuing cycle of the tank.
Continue with the Jungle Fizz Tabs and Garlic to rid him of IP's and continue your water changes to dilute the toxins in the tank.
You asked why you suddenly showed nitrates and I don't think you got a real good answer yet. Seeing the nitrate spike is a good thing. As a tank cycles you develop different strains bacteria to help oxidize the different toxins created. Simply put the first is Nitrosomonas that oxidizes ammonia to nitrite, second is Nitrobacter that oxidizes nitrite to nitrate. Your cycle was starting to level off the ability to properly handle ammonia as was shown by the drop without a big water change and due to the higher levels of nitrite you had a bloom of Nitrobacter and it's friends to process that off and nitrite in to nitrate. If you added the Dr. Tim's you really got a good dose of of all the differing strains of nitifying bacterias also that aided in the process at an early point in the cycle, causing your nitrates to spike.
Re: GSP is still sick, fighting an uphill battle here.
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:32 pm
by Puffer King
Dadof4 wrote:The Maracyn is utter BS for this problem and will contribute to this fishes demise. So far through out the thread there has only been mention of ICH at the onset as the reason for adding Melafix, never has a fungal infection been mentioned. Maracyn is a broad spectrum antibiotic that is used to treat gram positive bacteria on the surface of an organism and has little to no systemic uptake. In other words if you do this you are treating the skin, the fish absorbs too little (even at full strength) to do any good with IP's. I feel it will only cause stress and, even though it's targeted at gram positive bacteria, possibly interfere with the continuing cycle of the tank.
Continue with the Jungle Fizz Tabs and Garlic to rid him of IP's and continue your water changes to dilute the toxins in the tank.
You asked why you suddenly showed nitrates and I don't think you got a real good answer yet. Seeing the nitrate spike is a good thing. As a tank cycles you develop different strains bacteria to help oxidize the different toxins created. Simply put the first is Nitrosomonas that oxidizes ammonia to nitrite, second is Nitrobacter that oxidizes nitrite to nitrate. Your cycle was starting to level off the ability to properly handle ammonia as was shown by the drop without a big water change and due to the higher levels of nitrite you had a bloom of Nitrobacter and it's friends to process that off and nitrite in to nitrate. If you added the Dr. Tim's you really got a good dose of of all the differing strains of nitifying bacterias also that aided in the process at an early point in the cycle, causing your nitrates to spike.
Total BS , maracyn even at full dose let alone half wouldn't interfere with the cycling whatsoever .
The amount of ip's in that fish , would give its immune system a massive hammering and cause onset of more problems and so a vicious circle begins and the fish deterioirates rapidly .Pretty much all puffers come with ips ,and its only when they are stressed and there are other underlying problems that they become a huge problem themselves . The very fact that the puffer is showing a sunken belly highlights that the fish is struggling to over come the ips on its own . Medicated food is the way forward , antibiotics should be used with care . Thankfully now the puffer is eating ( medicated food )again it may noyt need them . However if the puffer doesn't perk up within a couple of days I would most definitely treat with maracyn.
Re: GSP is still sick, fighting an uphill battle here.
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:55 pm
by Dadof4
Actually not total BS, the nitrfying bacteria in the tank is gram negative and maracyn is broad spectrum leaning towards gram positive bacteria. During the cycle the bacteria is fragile and maracyn can slow it's growth rate. Also the nitrification bacteria are not the only organisms being colonized at this time. Once again there is no signs that the fish has illness beyond the IP's and throwing an antibiotic that is meant for treatment of surface infections willy-nilly, especially at half strength will only further the problem by stressing an already stressed fish.
Re: GSP is still sick, fighting an uphill battle here.
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:17 pm
by Puffer King
Dadof4 wrote:Actually not total BS, the nitrfying bacteria in the tank is gram negative and maracyn is broad spectrum leaning towards gram positive bacteria. During the cycle the bacteria is fragile and maracyn can slow it's growth rate. Also the nitrification bacteria are not the only organisms being colonized at this time. Once again there is no signs that the fish has illness beyond the IP's and throwing an antibiotic that is meant for treatment of surface infections willy-nilly, especially at half strength will only further the problem by stressing an already stressed fish.
Actually it is total BS , you would need a hell of a lot higher dosage to effect the cycle . At half the dosage or full for that matter it just wouldn't happen . Unless in the unfortunate situation the puffer passed away which i sincerly hope it doesn't ,and a full autopsy was carried out in a certified lab , we will never know for sure what the underlying factors are . IP's themselves carry all sorts of nasty bacteria , that can even get waterborne on excretion . By treating with antibiotics we are covering all angles . Prevention is better than cure . By treating with antibiotics at half dosage , no harm will be done , it can only benefit the fish and therefore help in its survival .
The pufffer keeper needs to keep feeding with medicated food and keep up on water changes . And if and i repeat only if thye fish still shows no signs of improvement then treat with antibiotics .
Re: GSP is still sick, fighting an uphill battle here.
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:23 pm
by LilGreenPuffer
And if and i repeat only if thye fish still shows no signs of improvement then treat with antibiotics .
Puffer King, you have been asked once to stop giving this advice. Once should have been enough.
Re: GSP is still sick, fighting an uphill battle here.
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:27 pm
by Puffer King
LilGreenPuffer wrote:And if and i repeat only if thye fish still shows no signs of improvement then treat with antibiotics .
Puffer King, you have been asked once to stop giving this advice. Once should have been enough.
I beg your pardon ??!!?? haven't been asked at all ! ........i'll say what i like thanyou very much .
Just because you don't agree , doesn't mean i won't exercise my right to express my advice .
learn some manners young'un
Re: GSP is still sick, fighting an uphill battle here.
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:31 pm
by Pufferpunk
LilGreenPuffer wrote:
As a moderator on this forum, it is my responsibility to make sure that the advice given by members is sound, based in fact, and not harmful. Both I and the administrator have stated that this method is a bad idea. If you would like to debate its effectiveness in boosting immune systems, please start a new thread, and then feel free to show us reliable evidence for use in intelligent debate.
Re: GSP is still sick, fighting an uphill battle here.
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:37 pm
by Puffer King
Pufferpunk wrote:LilGreenPuffer wrote:
As a moderator on this forum, it is my responsibility to make sure that the advice given by members is sound, based in fact, and not harmful. Both I and the administrator have stated that this method is a bad idea. If you would like to debate its effectiveness in boosting immune systems, please start a new thread, and then feel free to show us reliable evidence for use in intelligent debate.
Thats nothing but an opinion that isn't sound , based on fact and could well be harmful .
Just because lilgreenpuffer disagrees , and has no sound valid facts to deprove my case ....doesn't mean i will be silenced .
Re: GSP is still sick, fighting an uphill battle here.
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:39 pm
by Pufferpunk
You do know she is a moderator on here, as wall as Dadof4, who is also a trauma nurse & might know a bit about medications?
LGP did ask you to back up your "opinion".
Re: GSP is still sick, fighting an uphill battle here.
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:46 pm
by Puffer King
Pufferpunk wrote:You do know she is a moderator on here, as wall as Dadof4, who is also a trauma nurse & might know a bit about medications?
LGP did ask you to back up your "advice".
i couldn't give 2 hoots if she/he was the queen of england ! lol .....i know plenty about medications myself , hence my advice .
one using ones status on the forum to try and pull rank in a debate if somewhat juvenile , doesn't make one right or wrong .
Anyway this is deviating somewhat from the original posters thread . I sincerlely hope the puffer pulls through .
Thanks for the discussion folks , but its starting to go round in a somewhat time consuming pointless circle now so i shall let you chat among yourselves .
Re: GSP is still sick, fighting an uphill battle here.
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:03 pm
by Pufferpunk
Not only do my moderators keep the peace but they also make sure correct info flows through here. I'm not saying you are 100% wrong but please back up your opinion , because it makes no sense. As Judge Judy says, "If it doesn't make sense, it's not true!"
Re: GSP is still sick, fighting an uphill battle here.
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:05 pm
by Puffer King
Pufferpunk wrote:Not only do my moderators keep the peace but they also make sure correct info flows through here. I'm not saying you are 100% wrong but please back up your opinion , because it makes no sense. As Judge Judy says, "If it doesn't make sense, it's not true!"
judge judy !!! gosh you don't watch that crap do you ??? ....gosh PP you do surprise me ! lol
Re: GSP is still sick, fighting an uphill battle here.
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:44 pm
by scpion
Lol.. I smell a ban here soon...
Re: GSP is still sick, fighting an uphill battle here.
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:45 pm
by Pufferpunk
It takes a lot to get banned here.
Re: GSP is still sick, fighting an uphill battle here.
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:48 pm
by Puffer King
scpion wrote:Lol.. I smell a ban here soon...
i smell something too !
haha