Internal parasite?

[emartin]

*laughing*

Sorry, I meant MTS as in "Multi Tank Syndrome".

And yeah, trumpet snails aren't good at all.

But yeah I'd hate to have trumpet snails. If they ever think of invading my tanks, within a week they'll have a hundred hungry Botia species loaches in the tank with them .

I've had a wildcaught Botia histrionica clean up a pond snail infestation in one of my fry tanks overnight! (and it was a BIG infestation...hundreds popped up out of no where overnight)

[emartin]

ALSO, with the cuticles.

Do the slanted-tip ones work good/best, or should I get the flat-ended ones? (the flat ones resemble a super super small pair of wire cutters, they're like actual scissors I guess is a good way to describe them).

I'm concerned the cheaper slanted-tip ones won't work since those seem to be more designed for pulling/tugging rather than cutting like the more expensive pair is.

But yeah, someone let me know about this if the slanted tip cuticles will work fine or if I should get the more expensive pair.

If I don't get a reply I'll just go with the more expensive pair but I'd rather not..

[pufferpuggirl]

I apologise if I offended you with my comment, I didn't mean it in a serious way, sort of joking. I understand that you've got a lot to take care of, I too, have several tanks (19 at the moment, plus chameleons and dogs to take care of) so I know what it's like to have to spread out your time and energy on maintenance.
I won't say it to you, but someone actually said to me that perhaps I should give up some of my puffers because I had too much going and it was inferred that I could not take care of what I had.
Anyway, I am sorry if I offended you and I hope you will understand that I'm was just interested in the puffer's well-being.
As to the type of cutters to get ... I bought a special pair myself, they are a bit slanted, but having said that, because I can't see all that well, I have someone cut my puffer's teeth and he uses his own pair of cutters and I can't remember what they are. So you will have to choose whichever you think will be right. Actually I would think the more expensive ones would work best, but I'm not the person doing the cutting here.

Good luck!

[Pufferpunk]

It wasn't until recently when it started getting thin (it WAS still eating) that I got worried and thought maybe it was an internal parasite because no matter how big of a meal (several pieces of krill) I gave him he wasn't gaining weight so I thought either internal parasite or it is trying to have a massive growth spurt.

I'd still treat for IPs.

library/hospital/dentistry/

[emartin]

It wasn't until recently when it started getting thin (it WAS still eating) that I got worried and thought maybe it was an internal parasite because no matter how big of a meal (several pieces of krill) I gave him he wasn't gaining weight so I thought either internal parasite or it is trying to have a massive growth spurt.

I'd still treat for IPs.

library/hospital/dentistry/

For Internal Parasites think I should go with Metronidasole (I have the pure stuff) or Clout? I won't be treating for it either way until after I take care of the beak.

I don't like Jungle Parasite Clear so don't suggest it lol... Besides metronidasole is one of the active ingredients in it.

Currently the strongest one on the market is Clout (which also happens to kill the biofilter (yes I have extra biomedia in other tanks I can use to re-instant cycle) and dyes the water and silicone blue). Clout also has metro in it along with like 10 other anti-parasite meds. I like to refer to is as "the nuclear weapon of parasite meds".

[emartin]

I apologise if I offended you with my comment, I didn't mean it in a serious way, sort of joking. I understand that you've got a lot to take care of, I too, have several tanks (19 at the moment, plus chameleons and dogs to take care of) so I know what it's like to have to spread out your time and energy on maintenance.
I won't say it to you, but someone actually said to me that perhaps I should give up some of my puffers because I had too much going and it was inferred that I could not take care of what I had.
Anyway, I am sorry if I offended you and I hope you will understand that I'm was just interested in the puffer's well-being.
As to the type of cutters to get ... I bought a special pair myself, they are a bit slanted, but having said that, because I can't see all that well, I have someone cut my puffer's teeth and he uses his own pair of cutters and I can't remember what they are. So you will have to choose whichever you think will be right. Actually I would think the more expensive ones would work best, but I'm not the person doing the cutting here.

Good luck!

I wasn't offended, I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't neglecting the puffer but I am guilty of not paying closer attention to it to notice that the beak was beginning to overgrow.

[Pufferpunk]

Why would an anti-parasitic kill off bacteria?

[emartin]

Why would an anti-parasitic kill off bacteria?

No idea, but it does. I think one of the ingredients treats both bacterial and parasitic infestations.

http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/p ... catid=4724
http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/20 ... roduct.web

This website says it doesn't interfere with nitrifying bacteria:
http://www.wetpetsusa.com/aqprodfismed1.html

But in my experience it does. Usually when I treat with it I just treat it in hospital tank with no biomedia (just foam/sponges).

It works though. I've had it completely reverse sever cases of malawi bloat. Metronidasole can do that too, but only if you overdose it by like 4x the recommended dose (harmless to fish) but dosing that much gets pricey (about 1tbsp per 100gallons is the overdose I am talking about that can reverse bloat in severe cases).

[emartin]

Well I trimmed the beak. Easier said than done because this guy had some huge gums (or w/e you call it on a puffer). The 4th attempt worked. I didn't get it trimmed all the way down like I wanted but enough I think to get him to eat.

That was about 30minutes ago. I'm going to try feeding him some krill (easier to remove than bloodworms because for whatever reason the previous owner of the tank painted the bottom glass black making it difficult to see uneaten bloodworms) and see if he eats and then tomorrow get him a couple small snails for him to try and eat and to grind the beak down more.

I trimmed the bottom beak a little uneven but I'm sure that is not a problem right?

~Ed

[pufferpuggirl]

Congratulations on trimming your puffer's teeth, that's great!

I'm really pleased that you did that, and fingers crossed, I hope he eats for you. I don't think the fact that you trimmed unevenly will be a problem, I think it's great that you trimmed them in the first place.

And yes, it is easier said than done. I felt like I was going to snip off the poor puffer's lips when I went to do it ... and that's when I realised my sight isn't good enough and I should let someone younger with better sight do it.

[emartin]

Not eating still. Looks VERY stressed, just hiding and barely moving.

Should I leave him alone and try again later tonight? (feeding that is)

Should I do the water changes while he's stressed to get him cleaner water? Or should I wait until tomorrow? Or should I net him out into a dark holding container and do the water changes without him in the tank and then put him back in it?

Right now he's back in the tank and resting. I did a little more trimming on the top "tooth".

Let me know what you all my next move should be.

If I can get him eating again, and add metronidasole do the tank anyway in case of a parasite, I'm going to see about getting him snails this week to eat.

~Ed



EDIT:
Oh, keep in mind I do have a feeding syringe designed for force feeding food/meds to fish through the mouth. I can force feed him baby brine shrimp, crushed bloodworms, etc if you guys thing I should to give him some nourishment in the meantime. I can even force feed him some metronidasole too (couldn't hurt him, nothing to lose with treating him with it (it would be trace amounts, or crushed metro flake (if I still have some, i think I sold the rest of it at an auction last spring)

Oh and on trimming the beak, it was easier (as far as how much pressure you had to put on the scissors/cuticles (whatever you call those) than trimming finger nails. I was expecting the beak to be rock hard and needing a lot of pressure to cut.

It seems that the beak actually crushed where I trimmed rather than an actual slice/break through it.

[pufferpuggirl]

My thoughts would be to turn off the lights and leave him alone for the remainder of the night, let him calm down from the stress of having his teeth done.
Can you get ahold of earthworms at all, or have you tried those already? Most puffers really love earthworms and when my Mbu was ill with parasites and hadn't eaten for a couple weeks, it was earthworms that got him interested and got him eating again. So, if you've not tried them, I would give it a try.

I am going to let someone more experienced comment about force-feeding. I think that's a tricky thing to do and I would not be comfortable doing that myself.

Without me going back and re-reading this thread from the start ... are you having issues with high nitrites and/or ammonia? Or are you asking about doing water changes as a regular thing? If there's no emergency in needing to do a water change, I would hold off on that for now. Perhaps someone else could steer you in the right direction on that issue. It's getting late for me and I'm not thinking properly so I don't want to give you incorrect information.

[emartin]

My thoughts would be to turn off the lights and leave him alone for the remainder of the night, let him calm down from the stress of having his teeth done.
Can you get ahold of earthworms at all, or have you tried those already? Most puffers really love earthworms and when my Mbu was ill with parasites and hadn't eaten for a couple weeks, it was earthworms that got him interested and got him eating again. So, if you've not tried them, I would give it a try.

I am going to let someone more experienced comment about force-feeding. I think that's a tricky thing to do and I would not be comfortable doing that myself.

Without me going back and re-reading this thread from the start ... are you having issues with high nitrites and/or ammonia? Or are you asking about doing water changes as a regular thing? If there's no emergency in needing to do a water change, I would hold off on that for now. Perhaps someone else could steer you in the right direction on that issue. It's getting late for me and I'm not thinking properly so I don't want to give you incorrect information.

I've force-fed cichlids crushed flake, pellet and metro mixes before (mixed with tank water) with no ill effects. The purpose of that is if a fish is really ill and it isn't absorbing the meds through it's gills and consuming water (with the meds in it) fast enough to treat them directly.

So I have experience doing it. I'd just net him out again and attempt to squirt food into its throat. Is it stressful? Sure, but like you guys said so is not eating (and then dentistry without being sedated).


So what do you think? Just wait until tomorrow before I try forcefeeding?

And should I do the water change now (tonight), or do it tomorrow after he rests for the night?

[pufferpuggirl]

If it were me, I'd let him rest before doing the water change, and as to force-feeding him, well I have no experience at all in that area, so I cannot comment.

Sorry I can't be more helpful than that.

[emartin]

Today he isn't doing so well. He did move to another spot but still sitting motionless on the bottom of the tank.


Going to net him out into a container with tank water and do water changes tonight.

Also, I am going to force feed him. I decided to use Ocean Nutrition Formula One Flakes crushed and mixed with tank water and a very very small amount of metronidasole in case there is any parasites.

I chose flakes because they're the easiest (besides baby brine shrimp I guess) to digest, easy to see (bright orange), and that particular brand has a wealth of high protein, great ingredients with lots of vitamins. Here's the ingredient list I pulled from their website:

Ingredients
  Salmon fillets, Euphasia pacifica plankton, squid, wheat germ, tuna eggs, Euphasia superba plankton, wheat flour, sea clams, kelp, adult brine shrimp, brine shrimp nauplii, soya-lecithin, MPAXTM (Marine Protein Amino eXtract: fish meals, select amino acids (DL-Arginine, L-Lysine, DL-Methionine, Betaïne, TL-Tryptophan)), vitamins (ascorbic acid (Vitamin C), biotin (Vitamin H), Vitamin B12, riboflavin (vitamin B2), thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), tocopherol acetate (vitamin E), panthotenic acid (Vitamin B5), menadione (Vitamin K3), folacin (Vitamin B9), cholicalciferol (Vitamin D3), niacin (Vitamin B3), retinol (Vitamin A1), pyridoxine (Vitamin B6)), minerals (potassium iodide, iron oxide, manganese sulfate, magnesium oxide, zinc sulfate), ethoxyquin, carotenoid pigments.

Guaranteed Analysis
Protein (min) 54.6%
Fiber (max) 0.5%
Fat (min) 11.8%
Ash (max.) 5.8%
Moisture (max.) 7.7%

So that flake in crushed form SHOULD be a wealth of nutrition and vitamins for that puffer to hopefully keep him alive until I can get him eating. I do think he has a parasite though that's the only explanation I can think of for not gaining weight when he was eating (just kept getting skinnier).

I'm not a big fan of the ethoxyquin (preservative) in that flake but either way with the protein and other ingredients it should be more than enough to get that puffer some nutrition FAST... I did think of crushed bloodworms but I am not sure of what kind of vitamins they'd offer to be useful or not.

I'll keep you all updated.