The Puffer Forum

Is it the raisins/grapes that are toxic? I was under the impression they just had pesticides on them.

Pufferpunk wrote:Is it the raisins/grapes that are toxic? I was under the impression they just had pesticides on them.

Nope. It's for sure the raisins and grapes. There were studies done, and grapes that had pesticides on them, as well as grapes that didn't have any, led to kidney failure. There isn't a "given" amount that causes it, it varies individual to individual.

I'm pretty sure it's like the "chocolate kills dogs" thing. It has happened, for sure. But I think it's best looked at as a common bad reaction, or common allergy, than the absolute statement "chocolate kills dogs."

Ummm, chocolate, in large enough quantities, DOES kill dogs. It contains an component called theobromine that dogs cannot metabolize and it therefore poisons them...

Nick wrote:I'm pretty sure it's like the "chocolate kills dogs" thing. It has happened, for sure. But I think it's best looked at as a common bad reaction, or common allergy, than the absolute statement "chocolate kills dogs."

Dark chocolate, bakers chocolate, etc, in the appropriate amount does kill dogs. Raisins and grapes cause kidney failure. It's dicey, though, the amount that is needed. One individual of a specific breed/size can become sick from a handful of grapes/raisins, while it's possible that another individual of that same breed/size can eat several times that amount and not become sick, but why would you take the chance? Same goes for garlic, in some individuals, a small amount does nothing, while in others causes hemolytic anemia. It's a game of roulette, why do it?

I should also add that onions in ANY amount to dogs, cats, birds, etc, are ALWAYS harmful.

My aunt said it's the grape skin which is the harmful part. Garlic and onion also do have a fine skin on them too. I am a chef I kno. I wouldn't feed them any of those things. I think they can't digest it and it clogs up. My dDs dog. He used to fed her grapes all the time. And popcorn which also real bad for them. Anyways she ended up with kidney stones once. She still alive and no stones since he stopped giving her junk food. Dog is a mini Doberman pincher.

The mechanism is unknown. Research is possibly suggesting that grapes and raisins have a mycotoxin (a toxin from a fungus,) but like I said, there isn't a proven mechanism that causes the toxin, only speculation. It may be the skin, it may not...

As far as onions go, it's definitely not the skin, it's the disulfides in the onion that cause the heinz bodies to form.

Now popcorn is bad??? I share a bag with my dog every day! He loves to catch the popped corn in the air.

Our cats have eaten popcorn a few times too.. they steal it if it's in a bowl, bat it about & eat bits.. I never heard it was bad

I've never heard that popcorn is bad. I've been a vet tech for 10 years, and I've never heard that one. Probably a choking hazard at the worst... I wouldn't have it loaded with salt and butter, but other than that, I don't see a reason that it's bad...?

I only eat "diet" pcorn.

I can't see how popcorn could be bad. It's indigestible, sure, just roughage, but I can't see how it could be harmful. Lots of cheapo dogfood makers use a ton of corn in the food to make it cheaper to produce, and it just makes the puppies poo more.

As I said earlier, I think most of these things that are "poison" to dogs are just the most common allergens. My 40 pound dog was kept away from chocolate for years. Then she stole and ate about a pound of Hershey kiss chocolate. Nothing happened. After that we'd let her have little bits, a few M&M's on holidays, that sort of thing, and she never had trouble at all. Dogs having minor allergies to corn or other fillers in dog food is not that uncommon, either. They sometimes get red, itchy skin from it. Any animal is going to have a much higher rate of bad reactions to a food they would never have any access to in nature. I'm not advising anyone feed their dogs chocolate heavily, or stuff them with popcorn, or feed them garlic with every meal. But I do know just as certain as that some dogs have complications from these things, most dogs do not. This is why I consider it a risky allergen, not a "poison." It's certainly safer to avoid feeding any animal a common allergen. But when that animal has been exposed either excessively or repeatedly without harm, it's hard to see a deadly risk to them getting a little piece of these things now and again, accidentally or intentionally.

I also wonder if cooked garlic and dried garlic have the same effect as raw. Most dog products containing garlic use either cooked or dried, and I know it's quite different to use these in recipes from raw garlic.

And wait, just re-read, birds can't have onions? Tell that to my chickens. They ate tons of scallion when let out into the yard, and feasted on any onion end cutoffs we tossed them. They seemed to quite enjoy it. They also liked spicy peppers, tho.

Nick wrote:I can't see how popcorn could be bad. It's indigestible, sure, just roughage, but I can't see how it could be harmful. Lots of cheapo dogfood makers use a ton of corn in the food to make it cheaper to produce, and it just makes the puppies poo more.

As I said earlier, I think most of these things that are "poison" to dogs are just the most common allergens. My 40 pound dog was kept away from chocolate for years. Then she stole and ate about a pound of Hershey kiss chocolate. Nothing happened. After that we'd let her have little bits, a few M&M's on holidays, that sort of thing, and she never had trouble at all. Dogs having minor allergies to corn or other fillers in dog food is not that uncommon, either. They sometimes get red, itchy skin from it. Any animal is going to have a much higher rate of bad reactions to a food they would never have any access to in nature. I'm not advising anyone feed their dogs chocolate heavily, or stuff them with popcorn, or feed them garlic with every meal. But I do know just as certain as that some dogs have complications from these things, most dogs do not. This is why I consider it a risky allergen, not a "poison." It's certainly safer to avoid feeding any animal a common allergen. But when that animal has been exposed either excessively or repeatedly without harm, it's hard to see a deadly risk to them getting a little piece of these things now and again, accidentally or intentionally.

I also wonder if cooked garlic and dried garlic have the same effect as raw. Most dog products containing garlic use either cooked or dried, and I know it's quite different to use these in recipes from raw garlic.

And wait, just re-read, birds can't have onions? Tell that to my chickens. They ate tons of scallion when let out into the yard, and feasted on any onion end cutoffs we tossed them. They seemed to quite enjoy it. They also liked spicy peppers, tho.

No. They are not "risky" allergens. Milk Chocolate is not as toxic as dark chocolate. With a heavy amount of milk, your dog gets a stomach ache and possible some diarrhea. Dogs HAVE died from eating relatively small amounts of dark chocolate. It's theobromine poisoning, not an allergy. With grapes and raisins, like I said, is a disulfide. Causes Kidney failure, when a necropsy is done on these animals, there are dark spots in the kidneys. Not an allergy. When your dog eats onions and garlic, it forms oxidizing spots on the RBCs called Heinz bodies, which ruptures the RBC, causing anemia. Still, not an allergy.

Allergies are a far cry from poisoning. An allergy is the immune response to something foreign. Kidney failure is not an allergy. Immune Mediated Hemolytic Anemia (IMHA), while immune related, still, not an allergy.

It is unsafe to promote feeding your animals things that are harmful, and not "common allergens", on a public forum, whether intentionally or unintentional. These things DO cause harm. I have been a Veterinary technician for 10 years, and I'm also a biology grad, therefore, I have read the research on these things, not just speculated on them...

The birds and onions thing is similar to the birds and avocados thing. Avocados are deadly to many species of bird, however, there are some birds that eat them naturally in the wild. Same with onions, but again, why risk it???

I certainly won't! I'd never give my pup chocolate, grapse or onions.