The Puffer Forum

Is reverse for marine in regards to you dont want things to biological

Well, its not that there isn't a biological thing still going on, its just that when you have a marine setup, a skimmer can actually remove the wastes before they start to break down and produce nitrates.. so it takes it out faster and more efficently.. where if it was left to build up until the weekly water change, things could get too high (marine can be very touchy).

The live rock has tons of biological filtration going, which is why its important to have lots of water movement.. it gets the water flowing through the rocks and oxygen going to the bacteria.

right now i got it the live rock is the biological part of the setup and the skimmer is on top remove large amounts of waste products so could you just run a protein skimmer with live rock or do you run a filter (containing live rock also for water movement over the rock

Either.. you want plenty of water movement so people generally add powerheads or some sort of filter to cause more water movement.

My big powerhead died on my tank for example, so I am running an AC500 with no media simply for water movement.

Myaj so if you were bring a brackish Gsp setup to full marine when would you switch over your equipment to a protein skimmer and introduce live rock does rock require a certain salinity

I'm not positive, but I believe 1.018 is the lowest you can keep LR and to have a skimmer function. Someone else will need to say if that's the correct SG...

I think Jase is correct, a skimmer first starts working around the 1.018 mark.

As for live rock, its like any biological filter.. any change in salinity over .002 can and will crash it.. so you want to get your rock, "cure" it at the salinity you want (let anything that died in the move rot, etc) before adding it to your tank. Live rock can be a little tricky to set up at first, since exposing it to the air, etc always causes a little die off.

Actually, if you were to clean out the mechanical filtration enough, then it wouldn't be a nitrate factory. I don't know how often that would need to be, but def more than once a week. More than i would like to do anyways.

Thanks DRRT, yes, that's the idea. Since most people don't want to clean their media every day

just out of interest how come a protein skimmer only works at 1.018 salinity if its a clean device. its only removing waste product aint it

Oh, geez. Let me find Nick's answer to that one. There's an old post...

Here's one thing from here (viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10206&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... r&start=15) that answers a previous question more completely - thought I'd throw it in:
"Protein skimmers are your "first line" of defense against SW taint. They act before the LR does, removing any charged molecule(not just protein) which has enough polarity to stick to the surface of a bubble. LR removes end metabolic products from the water, nitrate and "other," but only acts at the later stages of breakdown, it's for "backup" on anything the skimmer missed and kept rotting, and its the final polishing on your water. You need both simultaneously, the skimmer removing molecules wheresoever in their decomposition cycle they have a polar charge, and the live rock removing nitrates and other end products. They compliment each other in further ways, a skimmer may remove some wastes created as LR cures even in a fallow tank."

This should answer the brackish question (never read it, too much science for me!):

"Skimmer functionality is based on the fact that complex organic molecules(proteins, but also fats, hormones, and many other wastes) are polarized molecules - they have one side which has more of a negative charge, and one side with more of a positive charge. Salt in a salt water tank is not bonded into a single neutral piece - when in solution, NaCl is a bunch of Na+ and Cl- ions floating around randomly, keeping the overall mix neutral in charge. There's one place they don't float randomly - the surface of an air bubble, where they line up. These charges attract one end of the complex organic molecules more than the other, sticking it to the bubble. The smaller the bubbles, the longer they float through the water, and the more stable they are as they get covered with organic "slime." This is why most air stones don't create a dense, stable skimmate, even in salt water tanks, though they may create a bit of bubble scum. For all this to work, you need a LOT of NaCL, so there are enough charges on these tiny bubbles that they can bind enough slimy wastes to make stable foam - hence the minimum salinity requirement. Some people have reported sucessful skimming in freshwater - but it isn't really skimming. Their water, for whatever reason(possibly using tons of slime coat products, or it being a pond in the sun full of slimy scum) happens to have something in it that forms slimy bubbles. But dissolved complex organics of all sorts are not being removed by this process, as they are in real skimming - only the slimy gunk in their water which is so dense it makes the water foam. This foam is simply that, foam, not real skimmate."

and

"Skimmers are technically "foam fractitioners" and were originally developed for sewage treatment, from my understanding of the technology - I hadn't heard they were used for treating ground water, but I don't know much about that. As Corvus and I mentioned, they do remove slimes and other "gunk" that naturally forms stable bubbles in freshwater, rather than needing an "assist" from salt to stick to the surface of a bubble - luckily, a typical freshwater tank doesn't have enough of this to actually create foam. I believe densely stocked goldfish tanks have been known to generate quite a bit of foam, even with a salt water skimmer design, but one should not think the presence of this stuff means the water is being cleaned in quite the way a skimmer can clean a salt water tank and that one can reduce normal maintenance on account of this."

LOL yeah, what Nick said.. its all scientific and technical and all I know is that it works hehe..

Nick is a champ!
I would have just said filth sticks to salty bubbles better...

LilGreenPuffer wrote:

splitadams wrote:or should i have another filter running for extra filtration?

I think Pufferpunk once called a regular filter in a marine tank a "nitrate factory." I think that the reason would be that filters trap waste, while skimmers remove it. Regular filters are not only less effective than a protein skimmer, but they're more expensive in the long run, since you'd need to do more frequent water changes, and salt is expensive.

what if you were to fill the entire canister filter with bio balls instead of pads

xmikebrock wrote:

LilGreenPuffer wrote:

splitadams wrote:or should i have another filter running for extra filtration?

I think Pufferpunk once called a regular filter in a marine tank a "nitrate factory." I think that the reason would be that filters trap waste, while skimmers remove it. Regular filters are not only less effective than a protein skimmer, but they're more expensive in the long run, since you'd need to do more frequent water changes, and salt is expensive.

what if you were to fill the entire canister filter with bio balls instead of pads

Slightly better, but bioballs still need to be cleaned or they do the same thing.
So here's the deal, you can use the canister filter if you want, but it will be a major pain in the buttocks to do maintenence, and if you don't, it will be the fish/ corals that pay the price.
I would get a skimmer, plenty of LR, some power heads and not have to worry as much.
And if you're worried about cost, the water changes you would have to do with only a canister as the filtration will soon equal the cost of a skimmer.