The Puffer Forum

Thats what I was told to use when my f8 was sick. I don't remember which post put they told me that prime would help him stop breathing heavy and freaking out since he reallt sick. I mean I have been using it for a few months now and I haven't lost a fish yet, but I am worried about my poor gsp. I mean I thought he wouldn't make it when I brought him home but them he started looking really healthy so I was happy that he was getting better. He had good color, was eating well and swimming a lot now he just seems really stressed out.

It does work well, but apparently, less so as the bottle ages. Apparently I've never had one open long enough to skunk up.

For a verifiable example of how Prime can kill your fish you need only read the company's Cupramine FAQ. While most companys' products are compatible with one another by design, using Cupramine with Prime can be lethal. Here are two entries cut and pasted directly from the Seachem Cupramine FAQ at http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Cupramine_faq.html so you can verify this for yourself.

"Q: I'm using Cupramine™ and my ammonia test kit is showing ammonia off the scale. What is going on?
A: Ammonia test kits can not distinguish ammonia from the amine based complex present in Cupramine™ and will therefore give a false high reading for ammonia while using Cupramine™. Our Ammonia Alert™ and MultiTest: Free & Total Ammonia™ test kit do not suffer from this problem as they utilize a gas exchange technology that can distinguish ammonia from amines."

"Q: I've been dosing with Cupramine™ and then I added Product X and everything died. What happened?
A: If Product X is a reducing agent such as ParaGuard™ (or other aldehyde based medications), or if you overdose with a dechlorinator, such as Prime™ then the Cu+2 will be reduced to Cu+. Cu+ is 10 times more toxic than Cu+2."

Keep in mind that neither of these warnings is on the label for either Seachem Cupramine or Seachem Prime and that the Prime bottle provides instructions on how to overdose the tank (up to 5x). To confirm my understanding of these two FAQ entries I called Seachem to ask about the toxicity of Cupramine with Prime. As the FAQ says, the false high ammonia readings are unique to the amine based complex in Cupramine, on the other hand the conversion of copper treatments to toxic Cu+ is not unique to Cupramine and exists with all copper treatments when used with Prime.

I think it is safe to say that many thousands, perhaps even millions, of fish have been lost when hobbyists used Prime to control false high ammonia in their hospital tank while treating with copper.

Some of our recent posts may seem to stray from the topic a bit, but there is an underlying message that we're trying to convey. When a fish is suddenly seeming sick but with no specific diagnosable symptoms look to water quality. In our view good water quality means water without ammonia, and nitrite and with low nitrate, but which also has as few added chemicals as possible. Many of the tank treatments sold are ineffective at best and with few exceptions (such a methylene blue) they reduce the oxygen carrying capacity of the water, which is stressful to fish and can make them sick.

In our opinion internal parasites are unlikely to cause a sudden onset of life threatening symptoms. When IP are are thought to be present we prefer to treat the fish using a short term dip in praziquantel rather than adding the treatment to tank water and leaving it in.

API Stress Coat is in our opinion a product that should never be used.
API makes two other products which we recommend:
Tap Water Conditioner - It removes chlorine and neutralizes heavy metals but has no slime enhancers.
Ammo Lock - If your tap water has chloramine this product removes the ammonia freed by the above. It can be used as an emergency ammonia treatment. We prefer to use water changes to remove ammonia and a half or single dose of Ammo Lock to remove the ammonia that remains after the water change.

Prazipro, formalin, and some other treatments can often be used effectively as dips without adding the chemicals directly to the water.

When you have a fish that is acting sick there is a strong desire to do something to fix the problem. People guess at a diagnosis and start adding chemicals to the tank water. In our view the result is water that is a chemical soup with chemicals that break down or react with each other to produce toxic compounds while displacing the oxygen needed by the fish.

It's hard to give an opinion such as the above without seeming to lecture or sound a bit like scolding. Please accept our apology if it sounds this way. We are offering an opinion that is based on our experience, but very reasonable people will disagree. This is not at all offensive to either of us since this hobby has undergone huge shifts over the years where common knowledge has given way to new discoveries.

I am very happy fishfan that you care so much. I love learning about ways to take care of my puffers as I have lost many due to lack of knowledge. This makes me not want to use prime anymore. I have just noticed that it is starting to smell bad and that is something that makes me wonder. My puff is going through some weird stanges. I kept the lights off almost all day and when I turned them on he was happy, swimming, and back talking for food. So I fed him some frozen bloodworms and he ate them all and then went and rested. He has been doing this all day. He lays on the bottom and then gets up and swims around and then right back to the bottom. I am so scared that I am going to come in here and find a body but when I get close he comes up from the bottom as if to say I'm stll here mom. He is so full of life I don't want to lose him but I really don't know what is wrong with him. I have been trying to take a picture but he doesn't like my camera and hide everytime I get it around the tank, he also does this if I pull out my cell phone around the tank. I try and never put any chemicals in the tank that I haven't asked about here first. All I have is mela, pima, prime, aqua safe, stress coat (which I now know not to use), prazi, and general cure. I just did a huge water change to get all the general cure out of that tank. Then I added prime, aqua safe, stress coat and then I added a few drops of prazi when I saw he was sick. I never add the recomended dose of things like stress coat so it was only a few drops. He has been eating snails and bloodworms and krill as a treat but hasn't had that in awhile. The only other new thing that I have added is some java fern, which he likes to lay by. Thats it, he is still rubbing every once in awhile but he has always done this, so I just thought it was something he liked to do. Thanks for everyones help and thanks for the info about prime.

Happy_Puffer wrote:I have been trying to take a picture but he doesn't like my camera and hide everytime I get it around the tank, he also does this if I pull out my cell phone around the tank.

I feel your pain; all of our guys seem to hate cameras, as well. I wish I knew how those Puffer of the Month photo winners get such good photos.

~Anne

Well he hasn't really changed. He comes up to the front when I am at the front of the tank. I am going to try and take out the fish that is picking on him. The lights are off right now so I believe everyone is sleeping so hopefully when I turn the lights on they won't be so active so I can take out the mean fish. He is rubbing alot more then he was the other day. What could this be and how should I treat him? Do you think he is sick because I haven't raised the salt level like I wanted to. He will be moving to my botfriends house where we can move him to the salt water. At least he has lots of places to hide so I hope he isn't getting picked on to much before I can find the meany!

Ok so I know we have been talking about my brackish gsp (soon to be salt water), but I have another question about my other gsp that is in my salt water tank. His belly is black and he isn't eating very much. He is swimming and acting happy, but why isn't he eating? He comes to the top to let me know that he is hungry but then when I put food in there he just swims the other way and doesn't seem to care. Is he mad that he is in the salt water or just stressed by the move? We moved him last Wednesday and I acclimated him very slowly so he wouldn't get stressed I think it was about 2 hours and everytime I added water to his bag he freaked out then when I let him out he was much happier and his belly got lighter but now he seems unhappy! What should I do?

Is the damsel still harassing him? If he's used to getting a beating every time he tries to eat...
Also, the GSP coming in at my job have been very poor lately. Eating badly, skinny, torn fins, not responding to treatments for parasites/protazoans, then dying. The stock has been BAD the past 4 months.

The damsel isn't picking on him. I'm sorry I am talking about 2 different tanks. In my brackish tank a plattie is picking on my gsp. Then the puffer that won't eat is in the salt water tank. I have removed the problem from my brackish tank now my puffer can relax! I know at where I used to work everytime we get gsp or f8 they get sick and die. I feel so bad, like I said this one in the brackish tank (Scar) has been beaten up for a while even before I got him I hope he is happy now that no one is picking on him and I hope he gets better! About the salt water tank little puff just doesn't want to eat and no one is picking on him. I think he is just stressed.

So a little update. My brackish puffer Scar is still acting the same. He got to eat a little more with out the plattie being aggressive. He is eating great and I gave him some krill as a treat and he ate a little bit but not like he used to. He is still hovering around the bottom and kinda grey now. I don't know what else I can do for him, I removed about 5 gallons today since I just took water out of the old tank to set up my jail tank for the mean fish. So I hope some of the chemical came out with that water. I only added prime to the tank and only 2 drops per gallon of water added. My lfs isn't open open on Sundays so I will have to stop by there tomorrow to get some amquel. Does anyone have any ideas about what is wrong with him? Hes pretty beaten up not from my tank he has these scars before I got him should I add some mela or just leave him alone? Thanks again for the help!

If the wounds are old, melefix won't necissarily help, but if they are fresh, it speeds healing. I suspect a lot of GSP around lately are very poor stock, the ones that come into the store where I work just keep dying.

Ya I think he was from bad stock. But I don't want to lose him. The wounds are old so I guess I won't add mela to the tank. They look like whiteish scars on circle patterns. There are 2 on his body and his tail is a little nipped but now that he doesn't have any mean tank mates I hope his tail comes back. I guess there is really nothing I can do for him now except wait it out, and hope that he doesn't have any other problems that I don't know about.

Cyanide collection is one of the worst problems. The fish stop eating abruptly or more slowly, and generally vomit up their food if they eat much. Not many fish collected that way will survive.

Well Scar in the brackish tank has no change but I was trying to take pictures of him and I saw him yawn! It was really cool at first it looked like he was chocking then he closed his mouth and swam away but it happened so fast I couldn't get a picture. But then I called my boyfriend and he told me little puff in the salt water tank died . When he took him out he looked really healthy minus the dead part. His belly was still a little black and he was kinda skinny, but he had all his fins and he didn't looked picked on. I guess the move to salt water was too much for him or he was sick before we got him/put him in the tank because the levels are still good. The other fish in there are fine too so I guess he was just sick.