The Puffer Forum

Never leave water siphoning into a bucket unattended...
it takes approximately 5 towels to sop 2 gallons of water out of carpet

It takes about 50 towels to sop up 20 gallons of R/O water on the kitchen floor.

at least it was the kitchen. I'm worried that sometime in the next week I'll be standing on a ladder putting a new coat of paint on the kitchen ceiling! (located directly below my room)

Hilly wrote: Well you're entitled to your personal opinion as I am mine. I'm sure we would all like to keep our puffers with other fish but thats not always possible due to their temprament and individual personality. But your comment about seeing an Mbu behave naturally, what about the others... Fahaka, Ceylon, GSP. Do they behave naturally in the tanks we provide for them. What puffer is going to beg in the wild for food and recognise a person as the food giver. No fish in captivity is going to behave like it does in the wild, there may be varying degrees with the closest to wild behaviour being in big public aquaria. We have routines and they learn them and that endears them to us even more.

Spot on mate and I wasn't for one minute saying that my way is the only way. I think for me after seeing Clooney suffer and how attatched I was to him and the real greif I suffered after he died means that I have a tainted view on keeping them in captivity in small-(ish) tanks. Granted behaving naturally isn't gonna happen but what I meant I suppose was for them to have a very large complex and interesting environment to explore rather than a square tank that they get bored in. Even in an 8ft tank they would only need one swish of their tail and they would be at the end, then just lay down cos there's nothing else to do. My opinions are the same for the other puffers, large fish, dogs, cats whatever. All animals need an enriched environment, so maybe a few tubes in a hamster cage is enough, taking the dog out for a walk is great, but for these larger fish that explore their surroundings I would like to see them in huuuuuge tanks.

The only thing that is important is the long tem health of any animal we keep. Once we have had a lot of feedback from Mbu owners that have seen them past at least 10 years then maybe we can form a better opinion in what they need. Now to be honest I have not heard of one making this age but then I have not been "into fish" for that long. I would love to hear from people that have kept them alive for longer than that time, until then i'm sitting on the fence with my feet dangling in the water of a huge public type aquarium

And we're back to my original point, how does the site expect to get the info when it has the perception from an Mbu keeper as we have heard earlier in this thread is that this is a We Hate Mbu Keepers forum, then we have another member who never posted before because he finds it difficult to ask for help because of previous reactions to him because of what he is keeping. You've got to be pretty thick skinned to be a newcomer and post you've got an Mbu and people who do keep them successfully dont seem to want to come here and post about them.

The age of an MBu is irrelevant in my opinion, many people lose fish for what they can see as no reason and then on the flipside of that there are those fish that go way past their expected maximum age. Someone posted as their Mbu got older it didnt move much from when it was a more youthful age, just sat there. Tank size to Mbu size, tankmates, diet stuff like that, thats the more important stuff. Posting you have a 10 year old Mbu who sits on the bottom all day watching TV through the glass because he's old and only makes an effort to move when he is hungry and waiting for his meal isn't really gonna help someone who just got one.

Although that info is quite relevant to the people who keep the lurkers.

So if a mbu died after two years but was active in a 4ft tank for 2 years that would be fine?

I agree the perception needs to change on Mbu owners though, as I said I found that my initial reception here was very negative and I also felt that a certain moderator at the time was just sitting there waiting to attack. We still need to refrain form the immediate leading questions of "so what tank do you have" or "do you know how big they get" when someone says, "hi I'm new here, I have an Mbu and need some advice" or the outright rude response of "oh my god they need a 1000G tank." The 1000G tank was a a suggestion based on one persons experience after his Mbu died from being in a small tank with health issues. I think we neeed to sit back and listen to what other Mbu owners have to say. I have come on here and been nothing but honest about the fact that I killed Clooney, at least I will post my opinions on why Mbu need a larger tank than most people would think. Until we get more info we really cannot really form an opinion.

Maybe the Mbu you speak of was bored of being cramped in a square prison with a few bits of wood and nothing else to do other than watch TV and wait to be fed. In my dream Mbu tank they would have a ready source of live food that they would have to hunt out as a suppliment to their feeds, purely to bond with me !! What sounds like a better quality of life to you mate if you were an intelligent roaming hunter by nature?

I don't want to start a slanging match with you Hilly as I totally respect you and find your posts of the highest standard and I think that its good to challenge what is considered to be the absolute law on here regarding Mbu. But the truth of it is, as you say, if we don't back off Mbu owneres we'll never learn for sure what they need for a good quality of life.

So I say to you all out there "back off and let them speak of their experiences and we may all benefit from it" and if you have an Mbu please speak up we need your help and value your input

Can you give a definitive answer why your Mbu died, had your Mbu exceeded the size constraints of the 4ft tank he was in.

Maybe you did get some negative comments from Moderators but you should also remember that some stuck up for you as well in the hope that some decent info could be gotten.

You are putting your own emotions into this about the Mbu bored sitting in his cramped prison. Some could ask what you were going to do with yours or were you going to leave it in its cramped prison even though it continued to grow. You need to take a step back and detatch yourself emotionally from the whole Mbu in a tank thing.

We could get into a slanging match but then you wouldnt really be allowed being a Mod you have to be impartial so we'll just call it a day there shall we before we get to that point.

I don't think it would get to that point if I'm honest.

I think I can give a reason for Clooney's demise yes, Nitrates of over 160ppm constantly had an effect on his immune system and he ultimately was weakened by a very heavy infestaion of whitespot. He was never right after this and went off his food and died while I was on holiday. This indicates that the 5ft tank he was in was no good for him and he needed a bigger tank. Without him my Nitrates are back down to a better 20ppm. So his waste was lifting the levels of nitrates way above a level that I could manage.

Some did ask what I was going to do with Clooney, I asked what I could do with Clooney. The only answer was that I should not have him in my tank which I knew and wish I had never got him for that setup. You might have missed my posts about the fact that I had resigned to having to keep him in a cramped tank and that ultimately I would contributing to his demise, because we didn't have space for another tank really. There was some talk of getting a 4ft tank for all my other fish and keeping them in the hallway but he died before that was realised. I got some supportive comments but long term I could not house a half size Mbu let alone get one to grow to a good size long term.

Its very hard not to get emotional and I do understand your point but if we approached these purcahses with a more clinical outlook then what would be the point of keeping pets.

I actually think its important to test the boundaries and excepeted rules and as a Mod I think its better to have your own opinion, This is not a dictatorship. If we look at a F8 for example which I have never kept, becuase of the amount of info that we have got from many peoples joint experience I feel I can offer advice on the care fo these puffers. Then when it comes to Mbu, the world and his wife has an opinion on what they need when in essence we really have no idea but people freely shout at Mbu owners for what tank size they have.

I will stand up and say I do not know what they require just that I have a personal dream of where I would like to keep one and nothing less will do for me. I'm not saying that a 7ft tank is no good, its just not my choice if I were to do it all over again.

I stand with you and hope that in the future we can get more info from the Mbu owners out there that feel so victimized. We need to show more support for them in the hope that as a community we can learn more about one of the most interesting personable and beautiful fish out there.

Ps Still freinds

You see thats where we differ, it takes a long time for me to get an emotional attachment to a fish. I enjoy the challenge of keeping them more than seeing them as a pet. I have to have them a very long time to develop that attachment. I have an emotional attachment to my Koi mainly because they are older than some of the people that post on this forum and my Oscar.The Abei I could sell tomorrow he's a great little fish but I would not be gutted to give him away to a good home.The Sabahensis as nice as he is was more about the challenge of keeping him successfully because there was sod all information on them than the actual fish and the Bichirs could go as well. I still have them because I still enjoy the challenge of keeping them.

I can understand that Hilly. I'm only attached to a few of my fish all for different reasons.

I agree with the refraining from scolding a Mbu keeper due to the size of the tank that he or she has. There is much mis-information given by fish stores and pet stores or wherever else people purchase their fish (internet, which I will get to in a minute) about all varieties of fish from GSP's to Mbu's. I think also because the Mbu is not widely available, or at least not here that I have seen, there is a demand for them. I think that is human nature as well, what we cannot have we want more.
So does the Mbu suffer? Well it depends on the situation. Once again this is where the mis-information comes in. Yes, some people get certain animals as a form of status but there are the others, that get an animal because they have nothing but the BEST intentions for it, like Manutius. I do not blame an owner of a Mbu for mistreatment of it because someone didn't tell them that this fish is going to grow to a huge size. This is why ordering off the internet is a very scary thing. The majority of your sites just give basic information like names leaving out critical information that could prolong the life of the fish you are receiving, if in fact you receive the fish you wanted in the first place. Even my major supplier that I order through at the store lists puffers very simply, ie: "Spotted Puffer", "Yellow Tail Puffer" etc. It is a Darwin's Grab-bag.
I remember when I ordered my Fahaka I was freaking out because God only knows what I could have done if I had a Mbu come in instead. The biggest tank we have is a 480 and it is saltwater and filled with very large tangs. I wouldn't want to be scolded for a mistake that a supplier made now leaving me with this beautiful fish that I now needed to find a way to house when I was preparing for a much tinier cousin.
All in all I think finding as much information on Mbu's and getting together a section for the forum would be a start to helping the owners get the much needed information that others left out. We all have our opinions on things but the one thing we all share is a love for this hobby and the best interest for our fish whether they be our friends, pets or what have you. I think that in the long run can help prolong the life of many puffers.

Well said Chin.

And yes Hilly I suppose we do see our fish differently Maybe I'm just a soppy wotsit

Do you think a special forum for mbus would be prudent & bring in some of the mbu keepers from other forums?

I think that could actually be a very good idea.I vote yes!

It's worth a try.