I'll start out by saying that I know nothing about aquariums, fresh water or marine.
My younger brother has a 55 gallon marine aquarium setup in his room and he has had a puffer for about 4-5 months. It is a small striped puffer. His puffer is very sick and I desperately want to help it - so I could use some help.
The puffer is currently laying on the bottom of the tank and has labored breathing.
Here is some background on the tank: 55 gallon with live sand and about 30+ pounds of live rock. He recently added a protein skimmer about 2 weeks ago. The tank has not been as well maintained as it should have (the temperature has varied from 70 degrees F to mid 80s and up until just a few days ago he had never cleaned the sand).
About 2-3 months ago he put a lionfish in the tank - and ever since then the puffer has seemed to spend most of his time hiding. Recently both the puffer and lionfish showed signs of illness and small spots of ICH. My brother began treating the tank with a copper-free ICH treatment, but they continued to look worse. The other day he did a fresh-water dip with the puffer and he seemed to get better (was out swimming and no longer hiding). The lionfish continued to deteriorate (pale/redish skin, and stopped eating). Yesterday he did a fresh-water dip with the lionfish, but it did not help. In a last attempt to save the lionfish my brother added an ICH treatment with copper (stupid). The lionfish died last night at 6am. Now the puffer is very ill. He moved it to tank that he just setup today, but since it was just setup the water is new (I've heard that the p/h and nitrate levels need time to adjust).
The puffer is now just laying on the bottom of the new tank not moving. Would it be best to leave him in the new tank with the new water, or treat the water in the 55 gallon tank with a copper remover and put him back in? Is there anything else that I can / should be doing?
I'm really at a loss at what to do, and I have a feeling that we're running out of time.
Thanks in advance,
-Charlie
Puffer on verge of death - help please.
Forum rules
Read this before posting!!
Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.
1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.
2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.
3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)
4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.
5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.
We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.
While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.
Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
Read this before posting!!
Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.
1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.
2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.
3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)
4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.
5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.
We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.
While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.
Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
-
messy_da_legend
- Figure 8 Puffer
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lisalisa
Re: Puffer on verge of death - help please.
What are the readings for ammonia (should be ZERO), nitrIte (ZERO), nitrAte and pH?charlie wrote:I'll start out by saying that I know nothing about aquariums, fresh water or marine.
My younger brother has a 55 gallon marine aquarium setup in his room and he has had a puffer for about 4-5 months. It is a small striped puffer. His puffer is very sick and I desperately want to help it - so I could use some help.
The puffer is currently laying on the bottom of the tank and has labored breathing.
Here is some background on the tank: 55 gallon with live sand and about 30+ pounds of live rock. He recently added a protein skimmer about 2 weeks ago. The tank has not been as well maintained as it should have (the temperature has varied from 70 degrees F to mid 80s and up until just a few days ago he had never cleaned the sand).
This tank needs a heater to keep the temperature stable.
How was the sand cleaned a few days ago?
What is the salinity of the tank?
Was the lion quarantined?About 2-3 months ago he put a lionfish in the tank - and ever since then the puffer has seemed to spend most of his time hiding.
It's best to treat ick on SW puffers with hypo-salinity and increased temperature. Please read the Stick "Treating Puffers With Ich" at the top of this forum.Recently both the puffer and lionfish showed signs of illness and small spots of ICH. My brother began treating the tank with a copper-free ICH treatment, but they continued to look worse.
While FW dips can ease the load of parasites in a fish's gills, it is only a temporary solution because the parasite is in the water, and all substrate materials.The other day he did a fresh-water dip with the puffer and he seemed to get better (was out swimming and no longer hiding). The lionfish continued to deteriorate (pale/redish skin, and stopped eating). Yesterday he did a fresh-water dip with the lionfish, but it did not help.
Very. Get some carbon in the filter to remove all those meds.In a last attempt to save the lionfish my brother added an ICH treatment with copper (stupid).
Not exactly. The tank needs to be cycled. Please read the fish-less cycling article in our library. You can also cycle a tank with live rock (not the stuff that was treated with copper please!!).The lionfish died last night at 6am. Now the puffer is very ill. He moved it to tank that he just setup today, but since it was just setup the water is new (I've heard that the p/h and nitrate levels need time to adjust).
Please provide the info I asked for, it will help me help you, and I really want to! How big is the new tank? How big is the puffer? Can you post a pic so I can identify the species?The puffer is now just laying on the bottom of the new tank not moving. Would it be best to leave him in the new tank with the new water, or treat the water in the 55 gallon tank with a copper remover and put him back in? Is there anything else that I can / should be doing?
Please get back to me asap Charlie!!I'm really at a loss at what to do, and I have a feeling that we're running out of time.
Thanks in advance,
-Charlie
Thanks for the responses.
Just an update - the puffer is now swimming around and begining to look better.
Lisalisa,
I am not sure what the water readings are - he takes a sample and has it tested periodically at a local pet store. According to him, they have never been out of a safe range.
He cleaned the sand using a python syphon, then kinking the hose to allow the sand to settle so it doesn't get sucked up. Before this, he had not actually cleaned in the sand using the python because it would suck it out of the tank.
The salenity of the tank the puffer is currently in is : 26
The salenity of the 55 gallon tank is 29 (however he just did a 50% water change yesterday).
I know that for the past few days he had the temp increased and salenity down attempting to get rid of the ICH.
The lionfish was not quarantined prior to introducing him to the tank. He has had 3 other fish in the tank, that he ended up having to return because they did not get along with the puffer (a koran angelfish, a snowflake eel, and a box/cow fish).
I will read over the articles and faqs about tank cycling this evening.
The tank the puffer is in at the moment is 10 gallon I believe.
The puffer is small (3-4 inches). Here is a picture of the lionfish taken 10 days ago, along with two pics of the puffer taken a few minutes ago.
http://www.cincystreetscene.com/fish/puffer.jpg
http://www.cincystreetscene.com/fish/puffer2.jpg
http://www.cincystreetscene.com/fish/lionfish.jpg
Thanks again for your help - it is greatly appreciated,
-Charlie
Just an update - the puffer is now swimming around and begining to look better.
Lisalisa,
I am not sure what the water readings are - he takes a sample and has it tested periodically at a local pet store. According to him, they have never been out of a safe range.
He cleaned the sand using a python syphon, then kinking the hose to allow the sand to settle so it doesn't get sucked up. Before this, he had not actually cleaned in the sand using the python because it would suck it out of the tank.
The salenity of the tank the puffer is currently in is : 26
The salenity of the 55 gallon tank is 29 (however he just did a 50% water change yesterday).
I know that for the past few days he had the temp increased and salenity down attempting to get rid of the ICH.
The lionfish was not quarantined prior to introducing him to the tank. He has had 3 other fish in the tank, that he ended up having to return because they did not get along with the puffer (a koran angelfish, a snowflake eel, and a box/cow fish).
I will read over the articles and faqs about tank cycling this evening.
The tank the puffer is in at the moment is 10 gallon I believe.
The puffer is small (3-4 inches). Here is a picture of the lionfish taken 10 days ago, along with two pics of the puffer taken a few minutes ago.
http://www.cincystreetscene.com/fish/puffer.jpg
http://www.cincystreetscene.com/fish/puffer2.jpg
http://www.cincystreetscene.com/fish/lionfish.jpg
Thanks again for your help - it is greatly appreciated,
-Charlie
-
Puffer Queen
- Mentor
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- Location: Louisville, KY
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Charlie,
To save time & prevent writer's cramp - here is a good link on marine ich:
http://forums.marinedepot.com/Topic31173-10-1.aspx
I would not raise the temperature in the marine tank. This will only increase the metabolism rate of the puffer which in turns increases the oxygen need/demand - the oxygen demand is already accelerated/increased in a puffer with ich as the parasites are affecting the gills and stressing the puffer. Stress and disease processes increase the metabolism rate as well so the goal of treatment is to improve oxygenation - increase aeration in temp. Keep temp cooler so the oxygen is more readily available to the puffer.
The belief in raising the temp, speeds up the life cycle of the parasite. But in reality, it may only bump up the one stage by a day or two at the expense of depriving the puffer of oxygen and adding further stress.
Raising the tank temp will also "encourage" the pathogenic bacteria to grow/multiply. Many bacteria like vibrio like warmer tank temps. Weakened fish (fish with ich) are susceptible to secondary bacterial infections - your lion fish sounded as if he became a victim to this.
Unless some sort of cycled filter is added to the 10 gallon, keeping the puffer in the new uncycled tank will require at least 50 % water changes every other to every day to keep the water parameters with in normal ranges. The 55 gallon has to remain fishless for at least 6 weeks so the parasite will die off without a fish host - returning fish sooner will allow the parasite to live on.
To save time & prevent writer's cramp - here is a good link on marine ich:
http://forums.marinedepot.com/Topic31173-10-1.aspx
I would not raise the temperature in the marine tank. This will only increase the metabolism rate of the puffer which in turns increases the oxygen need/demand - the oxygen demand is already accelerated/increased in a puffer with ich as the parasites are affecting the gills and stressing the puffer. Stress and disease processes increase the metabolism rate as well so the goal of treatment is to improve oxygenation - increase aeration in temp. Keep temp cooler so the oxygen is more readily available to the puffer.
The belief in raising the temp, speeds up the life cycle of the parasite. But in reality, it may only bump up the one stage by a day or two at the expense of depriving the puffer of oxygen and adding further stress.
Raising the tank temp will also "encourage" the pathogenic bacteria to grow/multiply. Many bacteria like vibrio like warmer tank temps. Weakened fish (fish with ich) are susceptible to secondary bacterial infections - your lion fish sounded as if he became a victim to this.
Unless some sort of cycled filter is added to the 10 gallon, keeping the puffer in the new uncycled tank will require at least 50 % water changes every other to every day to keep the water parameters with in normal ranges. The 55 gallon has to remain fishless for at least 6 weeks so the parasite will die off without a fish host - returning fish sooner will allow the parasite to live on.
Kelly
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lisalisa
If you really want to help this guy, you need to buy a test kit for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.
That is a Arothron manilensis, a Narrow Lined Puffer.
It gets to a foot or more in length. Let your brother know that if he plans on keeping this puffer, and not kill it through stunting, he will need a tank of more than 100 gallons.
In the QT tank the puffer is in now, he will need to do a ton (as in 75% per day or more) to keep up with the puffer's waste, as it is not cycled. He can bring the salinity down a point or too if he is having a real problem with the parasite.
That is a Arothron manilensis, a Narrow Lined Puffer.
It gets to a foot or more in length. Let your brother know that if he plans on keeping this puffer, and not kill it through stunting, he will need a tank of more than 100 gallons.
In the QT tank the puffer is in now, he will need to do a ton (as in 75% per day or more) to keep up with the puffer's waste, as it is not cycled. He can bring the salinity down a point or too if he is having a real problem with the parasite.
Thank you again for the helpful replies. I have read over the ICH faqs and am following the instructions. We bought a water test kit today and here are the results for the hospital tank:
PH : 8.3-8.4
Amonia : .25
Nitrite : 0ppm
Nitrate : 10-20
The water temp is currently about 75F
I'm sure these levels aren't optimal since the tank was just setup today. I will continue to perform tests daily.
The puffer has been laying around more and has not ate yet. Just a few minutes ago, something freaked him out and he darted all over the tank (splashing some water out and hitting the hood). I also noticed that he is closing his eyes as if they are iritated.
We are doing another fresh water dip now, hopefully that will make him feel a little better.
I couldn't find any faqs about tank cycling, but I plan on searching the forums later this evening.
Thanks again,
-Charlie
PH : 8.3-8.4
Amonia : .25
Nitrite : 0ppm
Nitrate : 10-20
The water temp is currently about 75F
I'm sure these levels aren't optimal since the tank was just setup today. I will continue to perform tests daily.
The puffer has been laying around more and has not ate yet. Just a few minutes ago, something freaked him out and he darted all over the tank (splashing some water out and hitting the hood). I also noticed that he is closing his eyes as if they are iritated.
We are doing another fresh water dip now, hopefully that will make him feel a little better.
I couldn't find any faqs about tank cycling, but I plan on searching the forums later this evening.
Thanks again,
-Charlie
Just a bit of an update:
The puffers condition hasn't changed much - he swims around a bit, but spends most of his time in the corner laying on the bottom. I also noticed sometimes when he is hovering he only uses one fin (other times both) - which may not be out of the ordinary. I have also noticed some red/pink coloration around his mouth/nose and the base of his tail.
He has also ran into the side of the tank at least once more (that I know of) and I'm starting to worry about him hurting himself.
He still has not eaten, we put a live ghost shrimp in the tank with him and he shows no interest. We also put some vitamin soaked muscle in, with the same result.
The lion fish turned a redish pink before it died (not sure if it is relavent).
I still haven't been able to find much information about cycling - the only methods that I've been able to find involve using filters from other aquariums (which in this case may be contaminated). I'm also still not too clear on what cycling actually is.
Right now he is in the 10 gallon tank with bare bottom, a standard filter (with foam) and air pump. Please let me know what I should be doing. From what I read we should do 50% water changes daily? Is there a special filter that I should put in? Any water additives? What about an optimal temperature and salenity to help him heal and make sure the ICH goes away?
Thanks again for any help,
-Charlie
The puffers condition hasn't changed much - he swims around a bit, but spends most of his time in the corner laying on the bottom. I also noticed sometimes when he is hovering he only uses one fin (other times both) - which may not be out of the ordinary. I have also noticed some red/pink coloration around his mouth/nose and the base of his tail.
He has also ran into the side of the tank at least once more (that I know of) and I'm starting to worry about him hurting himself.
He still has not eaten, we put a live ghost shrimp in the tank with him and he shows no interest. We also put some vitamin soaked muscle in, with the same result.
The lion fish turned a redish pink before it died (not sure if it is relavent).
I still haven't been able to find much information about cycling - the only methods that I've been able to find involve using filters from other aquariums (which in this case may be contaminated). I'm also still not too clear on what cycling actually is.
Right now he is in the 10 gallon tank with bare bottom, a standard filter (with foam) and air pump. Please let me know what I should be doing. From what I read we should do 50% water changes daily? Is there a special filter that I should put in? Any water additives? What about an optimal temperature and salenity to help him heal and make sure the ICH goes away?
Thanks again for any help,
-Charlie
-
Pufferpunk
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I woudn't worry too much about cycling on the QT, as you will be needing to do large water changes (dropping the salinity) on it daily anyway.
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...
"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
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lisalisa
In a very basic nutshell, cycling a tank is allowing the tank to build up bacteria that process a fish's waste products.charlie wrote: I still haven't been able to find much information about cycling - the only methods that I've been able to find involve using filters from other aquariums (which in this case may be contaminated). I'm also still not too clear on what cycling actually is.
Fish produce ammonia that is deadly to them. There is a bacteria that must be allowed to develop that will eat the ammonia and turn it into nitrIte, another deadly substance to fish. Then, another bacteria must be allowed to build up that eats the nitrIte, and turns it into nitrAte, a far less toxic substance. NitrAte is then most simply removed or kept in low concentrations through water changes. Fish-less cycling involves feeding a tank (with no occupants) ammonia, which allows all the cycling (nitrifying) bacteria to build up and grow into a substantial colony before adding any fish, so that the harmful toxins (ammonia and nitrIte) will be able to be processed right from the introduction of the fish. In a cycled aquarium there should always be 0 ammonia and nitrIte. There is also a product called Bio-Spira that is refrigerated, and contains live nitrifying bacteria. There are no other products available at the moment that will 'instant cycle' a tank like it will. Like PP said, right now you need to be doing large daily water changes.
See my response in my last post re salinity. Since the tank is uncycled, doing daily 50-75% water changes (really whatever is needed to keep the toxins down) are needed. Do you have an extra power head or air stone? You should use a bucket to mix and aerate new SW before adding it to the tank with water changes. Since you're going to be doing a lot of them, your best bet would be to set up a bucket (that has never been used for cleaners) with your saltwater, a dechlorinator (like Prime, by Seachem), and an air stone or power head and let it aerate until you need it, and always keep a batch going, so you'll have water that is ready to go into the tank at all times.charlie wrote:Right now he is in the 10 gallon tank with bare bottom, a standard filter (with foam) and air pump. Please let me know what I should be doing. From what I read we should do 50% water changes daily? Is there a special filter that I should put in? Any water additives? What about an optimal temperature and salenity to help him heal and make sure the ICH goes away?
Thanks again for any help,
-Charlie
Last edited by lisalisa on Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pufferpunk
- Queen Admin
- Posts: 32979
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T lineatus
T miurus
A modestus
T biocellatus
C valentini
C coranata
C papuan
C lorteti
DPs
suvattii
burrfish
T niphobles - Location (country): USA, Greenville, SC
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Thank you very much for the replies and for taking the time to walk me through this step by step.
I am going to setup a bucket with SW as you suggested and begin doing 75% water changes daily.
Should I be doing daily fresh-water dips as well, or do you think this may put too much stress on the puffer?
Should I be worried that he hasn't ate in a couple days? He is hovering around, but he seems to be using his rear dorsal fin and tail to swim instead of his side fins as he normally does.
Thanks again,
-Charlie
I am going to setup a bucket with SW as you suggested and begin doing 75% water changes daily.
Should I be doing daily fresh-water dips as well, or do you think this may put too much stress on the puffer?
Should I be worried that he hasn't ate in a couple days? He is hovering around, but he seems to be using his rear dorsal fin and tail to swim instead of his side fins as he normally does.
Thanks again,
-Charlie
-
messy_da_legend
- Figure 8 Puffer
- Posts: 223
- Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:53 pm
- My Puffers: M. baileyi called Esau
- Location: Ipswich UK
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lisalisa
That's what we're here forcharlie wrote:Thank you very much for the replies and for taking the time to walk me through this step by step.
.I wouldn't do them routinely. If his breathing is very labored, or the parasite load on him is very heavy, then I would do one.Should I be doing daily fresh-water dips as well, or do you think this may put too much stress on the puffer?
He is really stressed right now, and likely won't eat no matter what you do at this point. Give him a few days and try adding some garlic, as suggested.Should I be worried that he hasn't ate in a couple days? He is hovering around, but he seems to be using his rear dorsal fin and tail to swim instead of his side fins as he normally does.
He is just laying on the bottom breathing heavily right now. One of his eyes (the one that he kept closing yesterday) seems to be very cloudy, the other one is cloudy as well. He also seems to be covered in (or shedding) a thick film all over his body. Is this normal? Should I be doing anything other than water changes?
My brother has medicine called Maracyn-Two for cloudy eyes, and the local fish guys said if we bring the puffer in they can put some sort of eye drops in his eyes. Of course, the local fish store is partially responsible for the tank being a disaster so I'm hesitant to take any advice that they give. What sould you suggest as far as this goes?
Thanks again,
-Charlie
My brother has medicine called Maracyn-Two for cloudy eyes, and the local fish guys said if we bring the puffer in they can put some sort of eye drops in his eyes. Of course, the local fish store is partially responsible for the tank being a disaster so I'm hesitant to take any advice that they give. What sould you suggest as far as this goes?
Thanks again,
-Charlie