New SAP sat on bottom, not eating - please help!

[CrawDaddy]

Hi all,

I'm brand new to puffer keeping although not to aquariums. I've only had my South American / Amazon Puffer for 5 days now and i'm already starting to worry.

My water parameters are:
Ph - 6.5
Amonia - <0.25ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - 40ppm
Salinity - Fresh water

Feeding - trying to do it once a day - this is the main problem. He was fine on the second day after getting him - gulped down a belly full of frozen blood worms (defrosted) but now he wont eat a thing. I've tried putting small bits of cockle and mussle meat and more blood worms near him but he hasn't eat anything for 3 days.

Water changes are Regular. My last was just over a week ago. I'm using fertilizers for my plants (a mix of dry salts and flourish) but that is it - no meds. He's not been in there very long so he's not seen any tank layout changes.

The tank has been running for more than 4 months now so fully cycled and has successfully suported other fish and shrimp (fish now removed). It is heavily planted with lots of driftwood and places to explore. It is a 67litre tank. 24 inches in length.

The problem:
I bought my brand new puffer 5 days ago. After initial problems aclimatising him (i believe due to PH differences) he eventually perked up on day 2. He went on an eating rampage and tucked into several bloodworms and gained a little pot belly. He then started "glass surfing" alot for the rest of day 2. By day 3 he had taken to sitting on the bottom next to the glass in the corner facing the flow and has pretty much been there ever since. Once or twice an hour he might get up and pace the glass for a minute or so before sitting back on the bottom. As i mentioned above he is not interested in food and seems uninterested even if i aproach the glass.

I've had a close look and can't see any white spots for Ich. His belly looks pretty white to me and i can't any other physical signs of illness. He seems to be breathing slightly faster than one breath a second (not sure how fast he should be). One strange thing i did notice though was that a couple of times he's kind of spasmed, like he was having a violent nervous twtich. Apart from that and the fact he's now looking a bit thin he seems outwardly fine.

Can somebody please let me know what's up with him / what i'm doing wrong?

Thanks in advance.
CD

[purplecandle]

Do a water change asap, a nice size one. Your nitrates are high, and you may be having an ammonia spike.

ug.php/v/PufferPedia/Freshwater/C_Asellus/

[sgtmyers88]

Sorry for your troubles and your upset puffer.

Some Advice:
1.) Ammonia should be "0" water change can fix that.
2.) Nitrates above 20ppm do not help.
3.) That species is a social one and needs 2-3 specimens to feel happy.
4.) Tank may be too small for that many. (I will let someone else clarify)
5.) These puffers require dentistry if not fed hard shelled foods to wear down their teeth or they will get lockjaw and be unable to eat.

I hope you can get something figured out.

[bertie 83]

Many waterchanges should sort him out. Do about 20% twice daily if you had initial bad reactions, or do loads of small (20%) changes daily. How does your source water test?

[CrawDaddy]

Hi all,

Wow, thanks for the quick reponses, that's really great. I'd been having a read through some of the posts before joining, seems like a great bunch with some great advice on this forum.

It's quite reassuring to hear you've all immeadiately just jumped straight to a water requiring a change, rather than telling me there is anything too unusual going on. I'll do a 50% tonight after work and see how I get on.

As for the rest of the advice :
- I've decided I will get him a couple of tank buddies. According to my research they require 5 gallons per fish in terms of healthy water volume. My tank is probably a few inches shorter than ideal in terms of swimming length but hopefully the interesting layout, strong flow, new tank mates and some live food will compensate. New fish will have to wait until payday unfortunately however.
- I've not fed him snails yet but have another tank set up which i'll be populating with feeder snails this weekend. I'm then intending to feed him these regularly.
- I'll take a look at my source water tonight. I do know that my PH is higher (~7.5). It's the substrate that lowers the tank PH and caused the acclimatisation issues (so maybe i should do a 40% or 30% to start with).
- I've also read about a garlic soak for the food. I'll try and give that a go too.

I'll let you know how I get on.

Thanks
CD

[CrawDaddy]

Quick update on the source water:

PH: As I said before a bit higher than the tank water. I think somewhere between 7.6 and 7.4 (damn API test kit - it's apparently higher than 7.6 on the low PH test and lower than 7.4 on the low PH test so i'll call it as 7.5).
Amonia: Exactly the same as the tank water - it's not quite the yellow of 0ppm but it's not as green as 0.25ppm on my chart (Again the dificiencies of test kits)
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: Looks like it could be somewhere between 20 and 40ppm so let's call it 30ppm. Either way it was slightly more orange than the slightly more red tank water.

In conclusion my tank after 10 days was pretty much the same as the original source water except a lower PH (due to substrate) and a slightly higher Nitrate (due to waste proccessing).

Either way I gave the tank around a 40% water change. I've got some bloddworms soaking in garlic as we speak and I'm going to try and pick him up some snails tomorrow.

CD

[Nuclear_Glitter]

Also, when you defrosted the blood worms, what water did you use?

[bertie 83]

Keep up those water changes. 5g per sap is not enough. We could talk volume but swimming room is far more important. For a swimmer like these bigger is better, 3 foot plus is ideal.

[CrawDaddy]

Okay so following the water change he is now much more active - I would say non-stop. This suprised me since the parameters from tank to source were so similar but there has definitely been an improvement. I even witnessed him snaffle a couple of blood worms so that has relaxed me somewhat. This now just leaves 1) the glass surfing issue, and 2) increasing his appetite so he is eating regularly.

For the first issue Bertie, you said "3 foot plus is ideal". My tank is only 2 foot (24x12x15) and holds 67 litres. Unfortunately dispite researching I did not see the 3 foot thing until after purchasing. It is not an option to replace the tank so the questions is "What is the best way to proceed?":
a) Leaving him in there on his own for a while so he has all 17 US gallons to himself, trusting that he will eventually settle once he is used to his surroundings and live foods are added.
b) Buying him 2 buddies so that they share the 17 US gallons, trusting that his shoaling nature will make him feel more settled.
c) It is impossible to keep him in a 2 foot tank so get rid of him.

Any thoughts?

For the second issue, I've been reading up on the whole dentistry thing and i'm worried that he may already need a trim. Watching him eating the bloodworms last night it looked like he had a bit of trouble eating and it didn't look like there was a lot of clearance between his jaws for him to ingest. Could somebody please look at the attached photo and let me know if you think he needs a trim. It's not the greatest photo but you can just about make out the rabbit like teeth.



Nuclear_Glitter: I used tank water.

[CrawDaddy]

Bugger. Let's try uploading that again!

[CrawDaddy]

Just to wrap this thread up. Here's the final position:

- Water changes and a drop in CO2 have cured his innactivity.
- The limited appetite was due to dental reasons. For some reason i was expecting not to have to do won for a few months but his teeth were already long when I got him (unfortunately my image wouldn't load for some reason). Once I trimmed these his appetite picked up.
- The glass surfing remains a problem. The tank is just too small. I think this might be the deciding factor for the wee man.

And here's some things I've learned in my first week of SAP ownership:

- Water change, water change, water change - sorts out 95% of issues. Exactly the same for planted tanks. It pretty much doesn't matter what your tank perametters are. Do a change anyway if something is wrong.
- Watch out for CO2 planted tank people. SAPs really don't react very well to high CO2, more so than other fish. If you see them acting drunk, or gasping and your ammonia/nitrites are fine it mat well be a CO2 issue.

Thanks for the help from everyone above.

[RTR]

The tank is too small and very likely has insufficient current. Out of the breeding season these are main-channel fish, so are accustomed to strong currents. They do stay near the edges though, not out in the strongest water movement.

CO2 should not adversely affect the SAPs, unless the O2 is low. If the tank does not have decent current at the surface, I would bet on low O2 levels, which these fish cannot withstand at all. Unless the CO2 levels are at anesthesia levels, it is unlikely that. Bet on low O2. Increase the surface current and ensure that the tank has no, repeat no, dead spots and the SAP will have no issues. These fish cannot survive stagnant water. It is a fallacy to think that elevated CO2 requires low O2.

HTH

[Pufferpunk]

You're puffer's teeth are overgrown: library/hospital/dentistry/

[Nuclear_Glitter]

You're puffer's teeth are overgrown: library/hospital/dentistry/

He said he already trimmed the puffers teeth and the appetite picked back up.

However, if that picture is AFTER the teeth trim, then trim some more lol.

[sgtmyers88]

+1