About the article "Puffer Dentristy"

[blanketman]

hello pufferheads.

today we trimmed the teeth of our tetraodon biocellatus, named Baltus, for the very first time. we used clove oil and followed the manual in the article "Puffer Dentistry" found here on thepufferforum.com.

from the article about the use of clove oil:

As a community, we are learning clove oil may not be a safe choice to use repeatedly for sedating puffers. Since our SAPs will probably need their teeth worked on every 4-6 months, it is not advised to use clove oil for repetitive usage. It stops the fish from breathing, cuts off O2 to the brain & can possibly cause eventual brain damage. Some members are finding their puffers wake up from clove oil induced sedation slower and slower each time, and sometimes do not wake up at all after repeated sedations over their lifetime, or display erratic and uncoordinated behavior, indicative of brain damage.

and now about the possible brain damage. since this was my first time using clove oil, and all went well, I'm not afraid to use it again, and possibly again and again. why?

I'm no zoologist, but I guess fish, other pets and humans are the same in the respect of possible brain damage if there is no flow of O2 to the brain. and this is why I find the picture in the article a bit confusing/disturbing:



how good is it for these 5 SAPs to recover at the same time in a very small bowl? is not TIME the essence in the respect of recovery and getting that 02 flowing to the brain again? since I believe TIME is important I did not use a small bowl for my one puffer. I used a bucked half filled with tank water and added an air-pump-stone, so the water was rich in 02 and with some movement in the water to help the gills pick it up as fast as possible.

so, is there any scientific reason not to use clove oil? or is the main reason not to use clove oil that people use this article (and the image above), and thereby increase the recovery time and possibly cause brain damage to their puffers?

[Pufferpunk]

Those 5 were introduceced into that bowl one at a time, each after being sedated & trimmed. As soon as the 1st one introduced into that bowl woke up, it was moved directly into it's tank. All 5 were together in the bowl only for a matter of seconds. There have been many of us that have discovered brain damage after repeated dosings of clove oil because of lack of O2, since they discontinue breathing while sedated with this product. Not the same as when using MS222, where they continue breathing. I have found recovery time to be the same with both products.

Puffer Queen (Kally Jedlicki) also mentions the dangers of sedating with clove oil in several of her posts at Marine Depot.

[bigfatfish]

Why use clove oil when there is a licensed alternative? I used clove oil on 2 occasions, both with good recovery in a large bowl with an airstone (as you did). I have since found that MS222 is a licensed fish anaesthetic & would only use that from now - except for an emergency & perhaps I did not have access to it, in which case, I would use the clove oil. I do not know if the evidence regarding brain damage after repetitive use of clove oil is just anecdotal or if someone actually has experience of this - I suspect it is because clove oil stops them breathing, whilst MS222 allows respiration to continue. However, I doubt there have been any actual studies to prove one way or the other. I agree that good conditions for recovery are of the ultimate importance & maybe are of as equal importance as the type of anaesthetic used - as with human & animal patients too.

[Pufferpunk]

"At a recent fish health conference at NCSU, Drs Lewbart, Harms and Swanson, discussed this and have had similar experiences. It seems that the clove oil has a smaller margin of error with dosing than MS 222 (finquel) and that the oil can actually "coat" the gills making oxygenation difficult and can lead to hypoxia (condition of lack of oxygen).....thus causing injury to the brain/tissues."
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic76425 ... =clove+oil

[bigfatfish]

"At a recent fish health conference at NCSU, Drs Lewbart, Harms and Swanson, discussed this and have had similar experiences. It seems that the clove oil has a smaller margin of error with dosing than MS 222 (finquel) and that the oil can actually "coat" the gills making oxygenation difficult and can lead to hypoxia (condition of lack of oxygen).....thus causing injury to the brain/tissues."
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic76425 ... =clove+oil

Makes perfect sense to me PP!

[Pufferpunk]

That was a quote from Puffer Queen's forum.

[Dadof4]

I think you may find very few studies done on this subject due to ethical concerns and most of the studies you will find (not all of them) are going to be skewed because they are done by the manufacturer. The fair ones you find are going to have been done by marine biologists and even those are going to have been done on a small scale, which leaves large room for deviation in results and interpretation.