South American Puffers

supenguin · Post by **supenguin** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 6:56 pm

After running all over town the last couple weekends and looking for South American Puffers (SAP's) it seems we have hit the jackpot. Today we went to the nearest Jack's Aquarium. Its where we have the best luck finding a variety of puffers. Since the last time we were there, they seem to have received a MASSIVE shipment of SAP's. My guess is about 15 - 20 of them between two tanks. All of them very active and healthy looking.

Half of them are in a brackish water tank, half in a freshwater tank. From what I've read, and what they said at Jack's, these guys do OK in fresh or brackish water. I'm definitely wanted to go freshwater so I don't have to mess with brackish.

The big questions though are how many of these guys to get, how big of a tank, and what to feed them. According to the pufferlist, its 15 gallons per SAP. My wife wants 3 if not 4, so we're looking at a 55 gallon or possible even 75 gallon. 75 is out of our budget right now.

My wife is still used to the old "1 gallon of water per inch of fish" rule and was wanting to put 2 SAPs in a 20 gallon tank or 3 in a 30. Plenty of room going by that formula and the fact that SAPs only get 3 - 4 inches in length. I told her the rules change for puffers, and the recommendation I've seen is 15 gallons per SAP. So - how big of a tank for 3? How big for 4? And what is the best thing to feed them?

-Kenny

Post by **RTR** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 12:56 am

IF you have a complex setup visually, but with good current and free-swimming space across the front of the tank, you can go with 15 gal. for the first and 10 for each additional (assuming excellent care of course

). That would allow for 5 SAPs in a 55, and I would be likely to start with that, and have done exactly that. But that is no allowance for a cleaning crew.

I would have a spare tank (best 15 gallons) ready to go at all times, as you are fairly likely to have to rescue one or more. I currently personally favor ~3 in a 50 or 55, but that does not mean that I would not start with more. It is far easier to remove fish from a tank than to add another puffer to an established tank. You may get away with the intact group and actually see schooling. If you have to remove any, try a dwarf Peckoltia or small bristlenose species as a cleaner, or maybe a trio of Otocinclus cats.

HTH

supenguin · Post by **supenguin** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:20 am

I would have a spare tank (best 15 gallons) ready to go at all times, as you are fairly likely to have to rescue one or more

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Are you talking about a quarantine tank in case one gets sick, or is there a chance they might start attacking one?

-Kenny

Post by **RTR** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:37 pm

There is a fairly high chance that one or more will be excluded from the group and be picked on by the others. The smaller they are, the better your chances, but with current availablity issues you probably can't be too picky there.

The Fisherman · Post by **The Fisherman** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:25 pm

My LFS recently got in SAPS and i was thinking about setting up a tank for one. what size tank would i need? Is it best to leave them in FW or do they need light brackish like F8's. Is there diet basically the same as a F8?
Is keeping a solitary SAP ok, or do they need schooling?

-John

Rocker · Post by **Rocker** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:50 pm

As RTR has said earlier 15-20G for the first SAP and any additional ones allow 10G each.
They are purely freshwater fish.
Their diet is similar to all puffers with the emphasis on snails.SAP's more than other puffers seem to suffer from their teeth over growing.This needs to be kept in check with the regulat feeding of snails other wise they will need regular dental treatment.

The Fisherman · Post by **The Fisherman** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:16 pm

I am currently setting up a 29 gallon tank for 2 SA puffers. Would i need a hospital tank even if i kept 2? if so, are there any other commonly available FW puffers that are reasonably priced that would fit in a 29 gal.?

so far the tank has a UG filter, Rena 300 air pump, and i have an old filter and heater in the tank wich will need replacing, I plan to get a emperor 280 filter, and a visi-therm 200 watt heater. sound good? ( along with plenty of gravel, plants and caves and such)

The 29 gallon tank still has 3 guppies and 1 red eyed tetra in it, will a SA puffer(s) kill them?

Do SA puffers tear apart plants like a few other puffers do? I was thinking about doing a fully planted tank. If i did go with a fully planted tank, would i have to take out the UG filter, and the air pump?

I will be using RO water for the tank.

thanks!

-John

Post by **Pufferpunk** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:34 pm

Puffers+guppies=short-tailed, or dead guppies. I've always kept my SAPs w/fast moving, aggressive fish, like cichlids. Tetras & guppies are too delicate for puffers, even mild-mannered ones (for a puffer), like SAPs. Why not find another home for the other fish & get 3 SAPs?

Do not use RO water for FW. According to RTR, our resident scientist:

"The biggest issue is simple cost and waste of water. Unless the water is non-potable, there is rarely value in using RO other than for breeding blackwater fish whose eggs cannot function with much Ca++/Mg++ in the water. RO or RODI is too low in TDS for most fish, their kidneys and gills have to work too hard to maintain their internal osmolarity where it should be. Plus, without buffering in the water, the bacteria responsible for nitrification cannot survive, much less function. The pH in such tanks will be all over the ballpark, and mostly very acid - then at water change with short-term buffers added, it jumps up and then crashes again. And the nitrogen metabolites will be rollercoastering as well. The fish do not read the pH, but the bacterial compnents of the tanks do. So RO-Right or Equilibrium has to be used to restore what was removed by the RO/DI process. Practical? No. Possible? For a chemist or physiologist, certainly. For the average hobbyist with no knowledge of water chemistry and buffering, no info at all on fish physiology and all the energy the fish have to expend to keep their bodies functioning, it is a prescription for increasing their problems, not reducing them. In my life in the hobby, I have never known anyone other than a scientist to operate RODI tanks without major problems and or major expense (largely completely without justification). "

The Fisherman · Post by **The Fisherman** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 4:57 pm

I have to use RO water for my tanks because all the water available in my area is well water, wich has a natural nitrate of 20 ppm, an insanely high ( off the charts) Karbonate hardness, and a natural PH of 8.2. I can obtain RO water from my LFS for 30 cents a gallon. using my own water, i have found it extremely difficult to keep a tank running, and i get more calcium and lime buildup then imaginable. That is why i switched to RO. I read that SAPS do good in a neutral PH, so i thought it would be good. would it be better to use half my water, half RO water?

What is TDS?

Im trying to find a home for the fish that are curretnly in my 29-gal. ( my friend offered to feed them to his gar, but i didnt want too, since ive raised them all from fry)

Post by **RTR** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:53 pm

Mixtures of RO and tap are frequently used to reduce hardness, and there is nothing wrong with that. Very hard water is a maintenance issue, without question, but it would not harm the SAPs. If want a mix to reduce your labor, I would not argue against that.

TDS = total dissolved solids, i.e., everything that is dissolved in the water. The measures we use most in the hobby only tell part of the story (pH, GH, & KH). They do not measure things such as sodium, potassium, chloride, sulphate, phosphate, etc. at all. This is how folks get confused with household water softeners, which improve condition for laundry and reduce the GH, but give higher TDS than the water was before treatment.

The Fisherman · Post by **The Fisherman** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:24 pm

Ok, i think i will try mixing RO with my own water.

A few further questions: Would you reccomend a sand bed for SAPs , or is gravel better? I have been debating to do a standard gravel subtrate with UG filter, but i dont think you can have live plants with a UG filter? or to do a heavily planted tank, but that would kill the idea of having a bubble wall for my puffers because the air bubbles carry the nescesary Co2 for the plants out of the water. Any one have any input on this?

I dont know that i can supply daily snail meals, espeacialy for 3 different SAPs, I have to spawn the snails my self, becasue my LFS treats with copper, and meijers started making me pay for them. I would be willing to try dental operations.

Post by **RTR** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:15 pm

RFUG will work planted, conventional flow UG will clog sooner or later as you cannot vacuum without disturbing the plants. I run several tanks planted RFUG, all water column ferts, and they are among the easiest to maintain that I have. They are smallish aquarium gravel or Flourite. Large gravel will not do so well with plants in any case.

I do not like sand substrates, personal opinion. I have had problems with such in the past and do not ever plan on running such a tank again.

Airstones and bubble walls are no-nos in planted tanks.

C'mon now - I have provided daily to alternate day snail meals to a couple of dozen puffers at the same time. They are not that hard to raise.

The Fisherman · Post by **The Fisherman** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:50 am

Would 1 snail for each SAP per day be all right?

Post by **RTR** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:05 am

That depend on the size of the fish and the size of snails. I feed enough to give a slight belly bulge but not a beergut look

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