Brackish Water Plants

Tain't fresh, and tain't marine! Talk about brackish setups.
jtbadco

Re: Brackish Water Plants

Post by jtbadco »

Wasn't trying to imply that it was...just that they are visibly healthy.

And I am not saying that you are wrong either,....but I have seen stores and websites that say they are fresh water just as often as not. Most information regarding their 'preferred' salinity levels seems to come from where they are caught...where they gather in numbers, which is not necessarily their 'home' base.

If you can point me towards towards some actual research that clearly indicates that they only live and do well in XX salinity....I will gladly change their environment.
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Re: Brackish Water Plants

Post by Pufferpunk »

We have a poster here, RTR, who has done a decade-long study on this species. I'll see if I can get him to post on this.
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Re: Brackish Water Plants

Post by OCgatergal »

I have read the it is proven for GSP to live in brackish, not sure if that applys to F8

For me Brackish water plants are totally contradictory in my tank.
My anacharis when I bought it came in 5+ stalks now, only two are there and they aren't growing very well.
My wisteria is still alive looks the same as I bought it 2 months ago.
My Amazon swords are doing well and I'm pruning them every week. Though algae seems to overgrow on the leaves so I'm trying to lower "lights on" time.
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Re: Brackish Water Plants

Post by SxS316x »

I have a white veranda (I think that what its called) .. which isn't fairing well at all in my brackish tank. The veranda has some kind of cotton like substance growing all over it, is that something I should be concerned about?

I also have an Amazon Sword, which also isn't fairing well at all.
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Re: Brackish Water Plants

Post by Pufferpunk »

Neither are BW plants.
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Re: Brackish Water Plants

Post by RTR »

Brackish water is no-information term, especially on the web. I have seen posters writing about their brackish tanks - with 1-3 teaspoons per gallon of salt (table, kosher, whatever, even sea salt, but not marine mix). It is not really brackish water. Brackish water by definition is any admixture or freshwater and sea water, as in bays and estuaries. It is not salted water. If you do not use marine mix, it is not brackish water. It may be salted water, but no more than that.

I gave up on brackish plants long ago. The real SW plants (mostly macroalgae, but a few vascular plants) will not do well at low densities and most require reef levels of light to thrive. Some FW plants will do OK in low-density BW (for me up to only about 1.003, above that they tend to dissolve or die or at least growth arrest).

The more than two decade F-8 study remains incomplete and always will. But the best results were with calcareous substrates at low BW levels (1.003 +/- 0.001). That group averaged over 15 years life in tanks from small fish, all less than 1/4 normal captive adult sizes, so presumably largish fry. The substrates were all pre-filtered RFUG, so maximized ion mobilization. There was one group which was not carried to completion and did not have enough specimens for significance , which had some fish live past ten years. It had quite low marine mix levels , but heavily boosted Ca++/Mg++, HCO3/CO3 and some supplemented other ions. It would have been interesting to study more but was much more demanding of preparation than the relatively simple low-density BW.

Folks report where various puffers are collected in the wild (most commonly from estauaries or tidal rivers) and what the specific gravity was at collection. They make the unjustified assumption that such is where the fish live throughout their lives. They know or care nothing of the fish's lifestyle. So they spread misinformation. Estuaries are the great incubators. Both FW and SW fish commonly breed there, it says little about the fish's lifestyle in the wild. But even more, a fish's lifestyle in the wild says little about what is best for it in captivity. That shocks a lot of people. This is frightfully basic. SW fish in captivity live longer in lower densities than they have in nature. GSPs live longer in full marine conditions not so much because the conditions are inherently better in and of themselves, but because we can support marine conditions better than we can mid-level BW. In marine we can use refugia with macroalgae, skimmers, etc. that do not work nearly as well if at all in mid-level BW. Repeat after me: "Captivity is not the wild." It is radically different and likely may-fold as polluted. Are you going to do 50% partials weekly on a GSP tank in mid-level BW and every few moths do serial 50% changes 3-4 times in one week to re-set the system pollution build-up to minimum levels? Doubtful at best, and extremely costly. Marine tanks can be kept better and in the long run more cheaply, despite the initial higher cost. This applies to a lot of fish, not just BW puffers. I can keep neons six years average in my moderately hard water, I know that they can make 10 years in captivity in softer water. In the wild a two-year old is uncommon to rare, they are primarily annual fish in the wild - born one year, breed the next and gone before the next. We can do a lot better than Mother Nature on lifespan of many fish, but only because we can keep them better than they fare in the wild, and free of disease and predation, and equally important IMHO, free of stress. IMHO, if we don't keep them longer than they live in the wild, we are failures as fish-keepers. On most hobby fish we have the information we need available. The two hard parts are keeping the support systems up properly after setting it up correctly initially. Can you and do you? Be honest with yourself and don't post back here. You are the one who needs to know that. We are not required to share all our failures and short-comings. We are better at sharing our successes - and those are the ones to try to copy.

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Re: Brackish Water Plants

Post by Pufferpunk »

Well put! What about the age-old Q of adult size in captivity, compared to in the wild?
The more than two decade F-8 study remains incomplete and always will.
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Re: Brackish Water Plants

Post by OCgatergal »

the last few post gave me raised eyebrows. I'm questioning the true salinity of my water. First of all, my Amazon swords are doing great, which makes me a little suspicious. Second, every week after a 25-35% water change (9 gallons) a cup of salt is all need to keep the SG at 1.005. I wonder if my hydrometer is really not giving me correct results. Its one of those floating ones. Temperatures are regular
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Re: Brackish Water Plants

Post by Pufferpunk »

I do a 50% WC on my 29g tank & it takes exactly 1 3/4 cups of salt to replace the BW I've removed for a SG of 1.005. On the dot every time.
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jtbadco

Re: Brackish Water Plants

Post by jtbadco »

Thanx for clarifying RTR. I am relatively new to puffers but it was apparent early on in my own 'research' (not scientific...just reading), that there was contradictory information that came from questionable sources.
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Re: Brackish Water Plants

Post by RTR »

Re PP's question on size in captivity versus size in the wild - it does fluctuate a bit depending on the ecology of the particular fish. In general captives should match their wild cousins size, and if long-lived in captivity should likely exceed it (fish don't stop growing, but mature fish grow very slowly) . Some captive fish commonly or frequently exceed their wild size due to scarcity of resources in the wild. This is especially true for the mbuna, where territory and thus food are highly restricted in the wild. That is one of the uncommon cases. In general we should say that captives should meet or exced the wild kin in size. The common fallacy, repeated in articles and books ad nauseum, is to accept that captives will be significantly smaller than the wild fish - can you say stunted? The fact that it is common as dirt does not mean that it should be so. It means that as a tribe we under-house and inappropriately house and feed. We can do better, and should. It is hard with the largish fast swimmers, especially the schoolers - It is really difficult to house them properly without high tech trout tanks with strong and variable current - to me it just mans that those fish are not for tanks in our common usage.

On poor info in references: There is inadequate and incorrect info in most hobby books and articles - this is not peer-reviewed work. Even in the scientific journals, there are massive errors at times because some errors are accepted as true for decades or indefinitely.
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Re: Brackish Water Plants

Post by tennisball »

I haven't had my tank set up very long, but so far water sprite seems to be doing well in brackish water here. I also put in a few plants from my fresh water tanks that needed thinning, just to see how they'd do. The jury is still out. The water sprite was the only one I bought specifically for brackish water.

I really love a planted tank. The plastic plants are always such a pain to clean.
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Re: Brackish Water Plants

Post by mrswiss420 »

Pufferpunk wrote:Considering this species can live over 18 years, 2 years really isn't very long.
haha i was going to say the same thing...2 years for a fish that lives 15+ is not long at all. GSP's will live in completely fresh water for a year or two but again they live 15+ so that is nothing compared to max lifespan.
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Re: Brackish Water Plants

Post by landon »

dont worry so much algae will grow on your plastic plants it will look like they are real eventually as ive found out.
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Re: Brackish Water Plants

Post by VampireHeart82 »

This is great thanks!! I have had a real hard time with real plants and so I have a lot of the silk kinds in my tank.

I am wondering though since these plants are sold in fresh water where I live do I need to slowly acclimate them to brackish? If so how should I do so?
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