Any ideas why my puffers died?

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harmjoy
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Re: Any ideas why my puffers died?

Post by harmjoy »

Rich, CoreyK, Idontknow, and Pufferpunk,

Thanks for all the explanations and encouragement. I didn't understand about the bio-load. I never thought about danios zipping around causing stress. The puffers did seem to like to hang out in quiet areas of the tank. Didn't understand the term "over stocking" as it related to puffers.

I did think of one thing I forgot to mention. I had bought two ottos because I heard that they can get along with the puffers well before I got the placo. They almost died immediately (12 - 24 hours). The LFS had only a few left and I thought maybe they just weren't healthy or maybe they got jostled too much on the way home or something. I also read they are very sensitive fish. Perhaps they sensed the bioload problem?

Is there anyway to test the bioload since my water test kit doesn't seem to do that? The BW / Salt content is an eye opener. I had no idea.

Thank you to all of you for your comments and help. I hesitated to post because I didn't want to be strung out to dry. I really did try to research first. I want to take care of all of my pets well. I feel terrible that I caused the death of two little fish. As I'm sure most of you know, there is a TON of conflicting information about this. I feel I was a bit doomed from the start.

I may try puffers again soon, but it will be after I purchase a large tank and have it fully cycled the fish-less way. In the meantime, I will stop adding salt (thanks for the article) and just enjoy having a normal community tank.

So, what the hell am I going to do with a small tank full of tiny snails? I can see eggs all over the place too. LOL.
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Re: Any ideas why my puffers died?

Post by Pufferpunk »

LOL, sounds like your one step ahead of most--you already have your snail breeding tank set up & ready for your new puffers! Not to worry... now that you have found the site with the RIGHT info, your next puffer/s will be good.
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

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CoreyK
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Re: Any ideas why my puffers died?

Post by CoreyK »

Of course, we all feel terrible when and if our little buddies die, but unfortunately that's part of this hobby. People of all experience levels lose fish.

But particularly with puffers, it's almost always a matter of nursing them back to health from bad shape; usually they are parasite ridden from the wild, underfed (if at all) during transport, and cramped way too tightly in holding. It's an uphill battle at first really, and if you're not ready for it, it's near impossible for them to do well.
But if you are, it's a fairly simple and very rewarding experience.
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StormySkiez
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Re: Any ideas why my puffers died?

Post by StormySkiez »

Ottos are known to be hard to keep alive. An established tank with algae is best. Your water parameters will show issues w/ the bio load. There is no test for bio load. Go with stocking suggestions to prevent a heavy bio load. Weekly WC's and regular water parameter tests will show you how your bio load is doing. Getting good test results is a sign that everything is fine. There are some smaller FW fish that eat snails. I forget ATM what type. Some fish store will take them off your hands if you want to tear down the snail tank. Are you going to add more danios to the 10g? Danios are cute! Or you could take back the danios and get FW Dwarf puffers :). 3 would be ok in a 10g. It's possible to breed them! Check the stocking suggestions for DP's in the pufferpedia.

I've lost some of the so called easiest fish to have; guppies and my betta. I would never buy those fish again from the same supplier. Stay away from rescues. As PP says the stores will continue to sell unhealthy fish if we buy them to rescue.
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Re: Any ideas why my puffers died?

Post by coldmachineUK »

StormySkiez wrote: I've lost some of the so called easiest fish to have; guppies and my betta. I would never buy those fish again from the same supplier. Stay away from rescues. As PP says the stores will continue to sell unhealthy fish if we buy them to rescue.
I'm the same as stormyskiez here; I have big problems keeping "easy" fish like mollies, but I seem to get along with rare loaches and puffers quite well, generally! So, chalk this one up to experience: we all make mistakes, and especially when we first delve in to keeping unusual fish like puffers. Recently I lost two of my trio of South American Puffers to accidental clove oil overdosing (I didn't realise plastic containers might hold back some oil from previous doses); boy do I regret that, and I'd had them a fairly long time and would like to think I know what I'm doing most of the time. So, don't be put off keeping them. As PP says, now you've got your snail breeding set up ready, you've no excuse! ;-)
Dwarf Puffers in that 10G are probably your best bet, as others have said.

And now you've found our community here you will be in with some safe pairs of hands! I know what you mean about other, less reputable, forums where hearsay is more important than proven experience, but you won't find that to be true here.
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Myaj
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Re: Any ideas why my puffers died?

Post by Myaj »

Welcome to the Pufferforum!

Getting into puffers usually happens this way for most people. They are so dang cute, and the stores tell you what you want to hear (or what will make you spend your $$). Then they die.. and you wonder what you did wrong, even when you did extra work to make sure you did it right.

A few big things.. ALL puffers, except for a few breeds such as dwarfs, are not bred in captivity.. they are wild caught. This means your GSP's had a lot of stress and anxiety over the last few months. Being caught in the wild, transported, transported again, maybe again, put into a store with all kinds of bright lights, people walking around and tapping on the tank (oh a puffer! Puff! Come on, Puff!), improper water conditions (salinity especially), and, as is a problem with nearly all wild caught fish, a load of internal parasites. Add in all that stress to the parasites and exposure to who knows how many diseases, parasites and bacteria in the store's centralized filtration system, and you're talking a majorly depressed immune system making them very suceptable to just about anything.

Often, for these fish, getting home with you and into a tank in a corner of a living room is the most peace and quiet they've had in weeks, and sometimes they just seem to give up and die, happy to be free from the constant anxiety.


From your test readings, you looked like you were okay there.. you want zero ammonia, zero nitrites, nitrates under 20 (preferably under 10). So chemically, you were 'ok' but as was said, a lot more comes into play than just the test results when dealing with fish like this. For example, hormones. This isn't something the average hobbiest can test for, but fish release hormones constantly. As these hormones build up in the water, it tells the fish's body that the area is overstocked, its nature's way of balancing the ecosystem. If they get too high, it stunts the fish's body, preventing it from growing like it should, and generally this does permanent damage.. their body stays small but internal organs continue to grow at the normal rate, leading to internal issues as the organs start to press on each other. Early stunting isn't obvious right away, but when, 3 years down the road, your fish is only half the size it should be and has constant health issues, you'll be kicking yourself for those few months it stayed "just temporarily, i"ll upgrade when it gets too big" in a small tank.

What products were you using? If you are on city water, you need a decholorinater. Are you sure nothing got sprayed in the tank (perfume, hairspray, cleaning products, etc), or you put your hands in there with lotion or anything like that on them?

The first step if you try again, is to make it as stress free as possible for the puffer. This means a fully cycled tank, no tankmates that will cause stress (plecos are dirty dirty fish, danios are hyper), proper salinity (this needs to be worked with the cycle, as raising salt levels too fast can crash the biofilter), and clean, clean water.

You'll need to learn about salt.. Aquarium salt has its uses but for the most part, is not needed. Marine salt is not just sodium, it is a specific blend of minerals that matches the composition of the ocean. Brackish and marine fish need these additional minerals to be healthy, while at the same time, they can be harmful to freshwater fish. As Pufferpunk said, your two teaspoons of "aquarium salt" were probably doing neither harm nor good, its simply not enough to make a difference either way.

Whatever you do decide to do, I'd return the pleco. It won't be able to live in a small tank, they get over a foot long and produce amazing amounts of waste. There's really no reason to own one anyways, as they don't eat algae (they scavange) unless they have no other option.

And, as far as getting information off the internet.. one of the things we really pride ourselves on here is basing our info and advice on years and years of experience and shared ideas. We have members who have kept GSP's alive, healthy and grown to their full potential (small football size) for over 10 years.. obviously those people have found what works vs some person that says their GSP has survived "just fine" in a 10 gallon freshwater tank for 6 months. There is a huge difference between a fish "surviving" for a year or so and staying healthy and growing to their full potential, living a good long life. Many people think if fish as disposable pets, and don't think twice when they die after a short time.. goldfish are perfect example. Your standard "feeder" or "fair" goldfish should grow up to a foot long and live 30+ years.. how often do you see that happening?
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harmjoy
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Re: Any ideas why my puffers died?

Post by harmjoy »

I knew of one store here locally that I'd seen the dwarf puffers at. I went there yesterday to take a look. I asked if they had any and the sales guy points me to a figure 8 puffer in a salt tank. I said "Isn't than an figure 8?" He says "yeah, but there are lots of dwarf puffers, he's just one kind". I say "well, I'm interested in the ones that only get an inch long or so that are FW". He says "Oh, all puffers are brackish/salt water - but we never keep the little ones because they are too hard to keep alive". I just kept my mouth shut thinking "Duh. If you are putting FW puffers in SW, I'm sure they ARE hard to keep alive".

So, I don't know when I'll be able to get any FW ones. Eventually, I'll get a bigger tank. Maybe by then, I'll have more fish options. Can you order fish from anywhere? I assume you can. But, I wouldn't know where to start.

Glad I found you guys. At least if someone here offers bad advice, the rest of you are sure to pounce on them! LOL.

Myaj - even my adult 43 year old friend came over and started banging on the glass saying "puff! puff!". Jeez. People are stupid. After I gave her a short talk, she was embarrassed and won't do it again. I never knew about the hormones. How interesting. Huh. Who knew? Besides the rest of you I mean. (; I am using a Top Fin water conditioner.

Also, mentioned earlier was "non quarantined life food". How does one properly quarantine live food anyway?
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Re: Any ideas why my puffers died?

Post by RichGSR »

I have a T. Suvattii, which is a piscavore, so I want to give him the occasional live fish as a treat.

Best way to QT live food is to keep it in a QT tank (mine is a 10 gal) for about a month if not longer.

Here's my QT process. I'm sure others have their own:

1. Set up QT tank with heater, filter, and substrate. A fully cycled tank is even better. I had a danio in mine for 2 weeks (he's back in the cichlid tank now) to kick off the cycle before the feeders went in.
2. Put in "feeder" fish.
3. Dose with Melafix for 3 days.
4. Feed normally and perform frequent water changes (twice a week).
5. Deworm using Jungle Parasite Clear after 2 weeks in tank.
6. Feed and water change for another two weeks before feeding to puffer.
7. Gutload with spirulina algae an hour before feeding to puffer.

I like to QT at least a month, if not longer to make sure all parasites are clear. I have platys in there now that I'm trying to breed so I can be assured of "clean" feeder fish. Take care of these fish as you would any other fish so they are a healthy food for your fish. Additionally, I do not feed live food to my Suvattii often. This is a special treat he gets (he's only had one so far) once a month.

Again, this method is only for the piscavore type puffers. Most puffers are molluscavores and I'm not sure what the proper method of QT for snails, mollusks and the like would be.
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harmjoy
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Re: Any ideas why my puffers died?

Post by harmjoy »

Thank you!

I have some of that down, but didn't do any kind of parasite stuff. Any thoughts on a snail tank? Anyone?
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Re: Any ideas why my puffers died?

Post by Iliveinazoo »

harmjoy wrote:Thank you!

I have some of that down, but didn't do any kind of parasite stuff. Any thoughts on a snail tank? Anyone?
Plenty of live plants to make it look nice with plenty of light so plenty of algae for them to munch on!
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Myaj
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Re: Any ideas why my puffers died?

Post by Myaj »

I think there's one or two articles in the library about breeding snails :)
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harmjoy
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Re: Any ideas why my puffers died?

Post by harmjoy »

I have a ton of snails. They are breeding just fine. I have some live plants in there. My question was more about what do I do to make sure they are quarantined well enough to feed my fish?

And, when considering the amount of fish for a tank, (I'm thinking of the conversation earlier about hormones, etc). If I keep ghost shrimp or snails in the tank, do they count? I mean, if I kept 10 ghost shrimp and a few small snails in with my puffers, would that be too many inhabitants or be too stressful. I would think they would be excited to live in the "Land of Dairy Queen", but not sure. Maybe they should count towards the bio-load too - although my water is perfect and showed no problems there.
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Re: Any ideas why my puffers died?

Post by Idontknow »

I don't think it would be too stressful at all. It would be more like an all you can eat buffet. :D
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Myaj
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Re: Any ideas why my puffers died?

Post by Myaj »

Yeah, I don't think they'd last long enough to really add much to the bioload.. other than in terms of what the puffers output after they digest the snails and shrimp ;)

I'm pretty sure the snail articles talk about how to set it up properly and prevent allowing in pathogens, but its been a while since I've read them.
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Re: Any ideas why my puffers died?

Post by StormySkiez »

4 weeks is good amount of time to QT.

Example: I had guppies die in my snail tank from disease. PP recommended not to feed the snails for at least 4 weeks to my puffers to prevent transfering disease to them. I did that and did not have any issues at all.
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