Building up my first FW tank

Dwarf, Red Eye, South American & more. Freshwater puffer talk in here.
Lukedt95
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Re: Building up my first FW tank

Post by Lukedt95 »

Just been to seem them, and I think they are Carinotetraodon irrubesco, at least that's what the males are, the females look like Salivators. They're £9.50 ea, I'll be getting one sometime next week.

The tank they had them in however was worryingly small, there was at least 13 puffers in there along with 4 or 5 other fish (not sure what they were) The tank was at most 6 or 7 Gallons.
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DGabbs
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Re: Building up my first Brackish Tank

Post by DGabbs »

JRC3 wrote:
DGabbs wrote:Ya plus driftwood will likely rot faster in brackish.
I tried mopani wood once and it really started to stink, fast. That's why I use plastic mangrove roots from Petsmart...Doesn't look quite as good but will last much longer without any water problems.

Also, Luked, how do you plan to mix your BW when it comes to water changes? I would recommend a 10g plastic container with a cheap pond pump and small aquarium heater to premix at least 24hr before WC. With some hose attached to the pond pump you'll be able to pump the water right from the mixing vessel directly to your tank.

:thumb:
Mopani, that was it. The piece that i got that leeched a crazy amount of tannins. I was stupid enough to put it in my tank first, before i boiled it a million times, and i had a brand new bag of carbon going in an AC70 and it couldn't even begin to keep up with the tannins. Carbon didn't even put a dent in the tannin level. I took it out of the tank after 2 days and had to empty the entire tank. I got a really bad piece, but still beware. LIke i mentioned earlier tannins don't harm fish, they just lower the ph and hardness. The part that is unappealing about tannins is the black water look (unless thats your goal). Lamp eye tetras and lots of fish from the amazon do really well in tannin rich water, but its very hard to see through it. Now that you are doing a freshwater tank it may not be so bad, as long as you don't mind redish tinted water.

Unless you want tea like water, i would stay away from a piece of driftwood that leeches lots of tannins.

My aquarium literally looked like this after a day. It was crazy!

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.oOo.oOo.
Lukedt95
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Re: Building up my first FW tank

Post by Lukedt95 »

Wow, that''s the worst I've seen it leech, must of been a really bad piece, I'm pleased to say that after another 12 hour soak, the wood hasn't leeched any tannins at all, i'll leave it in over night just to be sure.

It still is floating however, it's ridiculous, might have to weight it down.
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Re: Building up my first FW tank

Post by RTR »

It was not a "bad" piece of bogwood. It was a hobbyist who did not know how to handle it. Those are two quite different things. Unsoaked "driftwood" (which it is not usually), bogwood, real driftwood, etc., all need out-of-tank soaking to leach out excess tannins unless blackwater is what is desired or needed.

As stated before, please, please do not put false of misleading value judgements on things which you do not know or understand. That is how myths originate.
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Lukedt95
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Re: Building up my first FW tank

Post by Lukedt95 »

I'm not going to plead ignorance, but at the end of the day some pieces of wood leech a lot more than others, we're referring to these pieces as 'bad' in our opinion as brown water is not what me and DGabbs desire.

Please don't think we're trying to 'create myths', we are just giving our opinion that the pieces that leech more are 'bad' as brown water is not what we require, of course some people like the colouring or don't mind it. It is just our opinion.

Back to my question, is there any way apart from soaking to keep the Bog Wood down? Or will I just have to weigh it down?
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Re: Building up my first FW tank

Post by Pufferpunk »

It may take as long as a year for it to get waterlogged & stay down without weights. I had pieces weighted down with ankle weights for that long.
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DGabbs
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Re: Building up my first FW tank

Post by DGabbs »

RTR,

"bad" is a very general word which anything can be referred to as from a given point of view. From our point of view having heavily tannin stained water is "bad" because we are going for a clear water look. What's good to someone is bad to others. I stand by what I said because it is perfectly exceptable. I also think that brussel sprouts taste bad, and I'm entitled to speak it. I didn't insult anyone, so there really isn't anything wrong with using the word bad to describe something from a certain point of view.

I have a great amount of respect for your experience in the hobby, and I've learnt a lot about figure 8 puffers from your posts, but I mean what I say.


The whole incedent was clearly my fault as I didn't presoak the driftwood for long enough before putting it in my tank, but it was many years ago, and at the beginning of our hobby ventures we all make silly mistakes. I was simply warning someone of the mistake I made so that they wouldn't make the same one.
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Re: Building up my first FW tank

Post by RTR »

"Bad" is a very useful word. But to say that you got "bad" wood from a store when the real issue is that you did knot know how to properly handle the wood that you got. You had, and may still have bad information, not bad wood. If you want realistic wood in a fish tank w/o any tannin release, you need to explore the inert synthetics. Real wood requires pre-processing prior to tank use. If they neglected to tell you that at the store, it was their bad. If they neglected to tell you that tannins can be removed by water changes or granular activated carbon, but both are laborious and non-trivial in time or costs, that too was their bad. They incorrectly assumed that you had information of handling wood that you lacked.

Mopani/bogwood commonly leaches tannins for a year or more, even from small pieces. But it is denser than water and so sinks immediately.

So-called "driftwood' which is not collected from lakes, rivers, or bays or shores also leaches tannins and absorbed material, but much less in total quantity of tannins than bogwood. It is generally much less dense than water and so must be weighted down securely to avoid it floating until it is fully saturated.

Real driftwood which is wild-collected also requires long presoaks in order to ensure that no toxins or pollutants are present which could injure the fish or tank water inhabitants. Residual tannins will also be leached out during that time.

There is a non-trivial difference between bad info and bad wood. If you choose to ignore that, IMHO you are giving bad info, and I will not let that stand without correction. If you do not approve of what I say, you are free to correct me. I also am free to correct you if you give out bad info. The readers can then choose to follow whomever they wish.
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Lukedt95
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Re: Building up my first FW tank

Post by Lukedt95 »

So I gather from the information you've given me I may have ended up with Drift wood? It hasn't sunk, and it's now had 4 days of soaking, it also barely leeches any tannins at all.

If this is the case I've been sold something labelled as Bog Wood, but turns out to be drift wood, do you think I should take it back?
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Re: Building up my first FW tank

Post by bertie 83 »

If you like the look of it just weigh it down with a couple of large pebbles or similar. I love the look of wood in a tank but know it is a pita to get it sorted so tend not to bother with it so stick to rockwork. I would rather spend any extra time I have cleaning my tanks and doing extra water changes. That's just me though lol.
It's amazing how easy maintenance is. If done regularly and thoroughly
Lukedt95
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Re: Building up my first FW tank

Post by Lukedt95 »

Yeah, I just don't want it to get too overcrowded in there, I'm planning to get these:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/180921870469? ... 725wt_1037

Something he can hide in.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/180913607701? ... 781wt_1270

Like the look of them.

A friend who works weekends at a LFS in Maidenhead is bringing over some Rocks free of charge, so I might weigh it down with that.
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DGabbs
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Re: Building up my first FW tank

Post by DGabbs »

RTR wrote:"Bad" is a very useful word. But to say that you got "bad" wood from a store when the real issue is that you did knot know how to properly handle the wood that you got. You had, and may still have bad information, not bad wood. If you want realistic wood in a fish tank w/o any tannin release, you need to explore the inert synthetics. Real wood requires pre-processing prior to tank use. If they neglected to tell you that at the store, it was their bad. If they neglected to tell you that tannins can be removed by water changes or granular activated carbon, but both are laborious and non-trivial in time or costs, that too was their bad. They incorrectly assumed that you had information of handling wood that you lacked.

Mopani/bogwood commonly leaches tannins for a year or more, even from small pieces. But it is denser than water and so sinks immediately.

So-called "driftwood' which is not collected from lakes, rivers, or bays or shores also leaches tannins and absorbed material, but much less in total quantity of tannins than bogwood. It is generally much less dense than water and so must be weighted down securely to avoid it floating until it is fully saturated.

Real driftwood which is wild-collected also requires long presoaks in order to ensure that no toxins or pollutants are present which could injure the fish or tank water inhabitants. Residual tannins will also be leached out during that time.

There is a non-trivial difference between bad info and bad wood. If you choose to ignore that, IMHO you are giving bad info, and I will not let that stand without correction. If you do not approve of what I say, you are free to correct me. I also am free to correct you if you give out bad info. The readers can then choose to follow whomever they wish.
It was back when i was just getting going in the hobby, and i know for a fact that the person at the chain pet store had given me no info on tannins or the required soak time. I probably just soaked it for a few hours saw the tannins and then figured it was just some red dust on the wood and put it in the tank. We aren't born with every bit of knowledge prewired in our heads, and i would never make the mistake of not properly soaking anything thats going in one of my tanks.

This whole "bad" debate isn't really going any where, and if you want to continue it, thats fine, but i stand by what i said. I really don't think this is the kind of stuff the rumours are made out of. If I don't like something or its result its bad for me, but that doesn't mean its bad for everyone else. The piece could be a bad piece for leeching or it could be a good piece for leeching depending on who you are.
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Lukedt95
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Re: Building up my first FW tank

Post by Lukedt95 »

DGabbs wrote: The piece could be a bad piece for leeching or it could be a good piece for leeching depending on who you are.
I agree, it's all a matter of perspective and opinion, what we are saying we are not claiming to be fact, we are saying it is our opinion, we are not giving false information, purely giving our opinion.

What preparation should I complete before adding ornaments etc to my tank?
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Re: Building up my first FW tank

Post by J-P »

but if one is not prepping the wood properly, one will not get the desired results.

For myself I boil it, drain it, boil it again, and keep doing that until I can see the bottom of the pot. Some will also bake it and boil it. Tannis isn't that bad. It is unsightly but it can be very beneficial. The darkening of the water is an algae retardant and could relax your puffer if it is newly introduced (help with diffusing bright lights). Having said that, I have had problems with wood before where a fungus developed due to a rotten core and really made a mess of the tank. Lots of fish died. I believe that was my fault for not checking it more thoroughly and / or treating it longer. I am not certain if that piece was salvageable. I just tossed it on PP's advice. After that everything was fine.

I don't think RTR has posted this in this thread but here it goes:

"If it is alive, or was once alive, you have to QT it." That is so true. Don't put it in the display until you are certain it is acceptable.
if you follow me, you avoid stepping in the crap that I just did...

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Lukedt95
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Re: Building up my first FW tank

Post by Lukedt95 »

I'm talking about these sorts of ornaments, definitely not alive :wink:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/180921870469? ... 725wt_1037

Should I clean it in de-chlorinated water?
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