F8 Extremely lethargic after water change and salinity increase

Oh no! Sick fish?! Come here and see if someone can help!
Forum rules
Read this before posting!!

Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.

1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.

2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.

3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)

4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.

5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.

We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.

While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.

Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
Post Reply
savvyvannah
Puffer Fry
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 1:52 pm
Location (country): United States

F8 Extremely lethargic after water change and salinity increase

Post by savvyvannah »

To whoever can help me,

Summary:
I've had my juvenile F8 for several months now and excepting one issue with an ammonia spike a few months ago, he's been perfectly content and healthy. This morning he seemed a little slower than usual but still interested in food and ate well (brine shrimp). This afternoon, however, he has declined exponentially. The current is pushing him around (I've changed the direction of the filter to stop this to keep him from having to expend too much energy fighting it) and he is now mostly just sitting near the sand on the bottom of the tank. He seems to be having a hard time maintaining his position in the water and every now and then does a headstand. When he does move, it's very weak and he has trouble navigating objects in the tank. He responds to movement within the tank and will swim away if I attempt to nudge him with the net (he was stuck in a plastic plant earlier). His body is also free of any injuries or apparent illness. I am very worried for him.

Diet: He is fed a mixture of frozen brine shrimp, bloodworms, and daphnia. I haven't had any snails small enough to feed him in the last couple of weeks so that is the only thing he's missing truly. His teeth do not appear overgrown.

Water Quality:
pH:6.5
GH: 180ppm (This seems way too high--I'm not sure how to decrease the hardness without hurting him)
KH: 0ppm
NO2: 0ppm
NO3: 20ppm
Ammonia: <0.25ppm (API liquid test; all other parameters were measured with API test strips)
temp: 80°F
SG: In the last month, I added enough marine salt to create an environment with a SG=1.004. Yesterday, I completed a water change and now the SG=1.006. It is my understanding that F8 puffers can withstand a SG change within 0.002. Please let me know if this is not correct.

Tank Setup:
5 gallons
three plastic plants
faux driftwood
sand substrate
Cascade 300 internal canister filter
Aqueon Heater

Tank Mates:
none

Additional info: Each time I do a water change I add Fluval Cycle Concentrated Biological Booster.

Please help!
Savannah
User avatar
Pufferpunk
Queen Admin
Posts: 32773
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 11:06 am
Gender: Female
My Puffers: Filbert, the 12" T lineatus
Punkster, the 4" red T miurus
Mongo, the 4" A modestus
2 T biocellatus
C valentini
C coranata
C papuan
Also kept:
lorteti
DPs
suvattii
burrfish
T niphobles
Location (country): USA, Greenville, SC
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Re: F8 Extremely lethargic after water change and salinity increase

Post by Pufferpunk »

5g isn't nearly large enough for this species, 15-20 is recommended. Although, I don't believe this is causing his problem. Is it possible he swallowed air? Can he upright himself at all?

No need to add extra bacteria "booster" to an already cycled tank. Especially if the tank is BW, as that bacteria is for FW & will probably just die at that SG, causing more problems. Don't raise the SG any higher. 1.003-5 is fine.
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
savvyvannah
Puffer Fry
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 1:52 pm
Location (country): United States

Re: F8 Extremely lethargic after water change and salinity increase

Post by savvyvannah »

He passed away shortly after my original post. I realize he needed a bigger tank and I was working on a 30g for him. I don't think he had an opportunity to swallow any air and did not appear to be bloated at all. I would love to get to the bottom of this before trying again with another puffer.

I think I may have done too much of a water change. Because of the relative "newness" of my tank, I had some brown algae/diatoms beginning to take over. Instead of my usual 5% water change, I did a 75% water change and cleaned the diatoms from the glass and decor. I wonder if I somehow caused shock to him during this process? If so, why would it take a day and a half for his symptoms to occur? As I said before, he was swimming normally and ate his breakfast that morning and less than six hours later he was gone. I don't believe it was the food either because the brine shrimp I fed him was from the same cube of brine shrimp I had fed him the day before. To be clear, I did remove him from the tank and put him in a holding tank while I was cleaning. The holding tank contained water from his tank that had been siphoned out.

Please help me understand so that I will not repeat any mistakes!

Cheers,
Savannah
User avatar
Pufferpunk
Queen Admin
Posts: 32773
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 11:06 am
Gender: Female
My Puffers: Filbert, the 12" T lineatus
Punkster, the 4" red T miurus
Mongo, the 4" A modestus
2 T biocellatus
C valentini
C coranata
C papuan
Also kept:
lorteti
DPs
suvattii
burrfish
T niphobles
Location (country): USA, Greenville, SC
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Re: F8 Extremely lethargic after water change and salinity increase

Post by Pufferpunk »

If you usually do 5% (50% weekly is recommended but in a tank that small, I'd have done them 3x/week or more), then 75% definitely would have been a shock to his system. But since you said this was days ago, I'm not too sure that is the specific issue. More so, you possible disturbed the biological filtration & ammonia/nitrite developed. You tested his water while this was happening??
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
savvyvannah
Puffer Fry
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 1:52 pm
Location (country): United States

Re: F8 Extremely lethargic after water change and salinity increase

Post by savvyvannah »

I didn't test the water for a baseline prior to changing the water, but I did testing once I noticed his abnormal behavior. The parameters listed above were what I came up with. I have had an issue with ammonia in the past and he acted in an entirely different way (very erratic) so I'm inclined to think this was not the problem here. This is further supported by testing. I wondered about pH and GH? I know the addition of marine salts changes water chemistry. The water change was the day before he passed away.
User avatar
Pufferpunk
Queen Admin
Posts: 32773
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 11:06 am
Gender: Female
My Puffers: Filbert, the 12" T lineatus
Punkster, the 4" red T miurus
Mongo, the 4" A modestus
2 T biocellatus
C valentini
C coranata
C papuan
Also kept:
lorteti
DPs
suvattii
burrfish
T niphobles
Location (country): USA, Greenville, SC
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Re: F8 Extremely lethargic after water change and salinity increase

Post by Pufferpunk »

Then it very well may have been a shock to his system, if you did such a large WC when he was used to the water he was in. I often do 75-90% WC but as long as it's done weekly, it's fine. My tank water greatly resembles my tap water.
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
Post Reply