Porcupine Puffer, brink of death

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Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.

1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.

2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.

3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)

4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.

5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.

We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.

While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.

Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
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Re: Porcupine Puffer, bring of death

Post by Corvus »

Sounds neurological. Thiamin deficiency due to thiaminase is one possible explanation. Depends on the food and of course vitamin additions.

For the freezer: Putting a fish in a bowl with warm water into the freezer is cruel, can take hours. If you wish to use a freezer do it this way: Put saltwater with high salinity (higher than marine, add some salt) in a bowl (without fish) in the freezer. Wait until the water has <-5°C, but is still not frozen. Add the fish to the bowl, most tropical fish are unconcious at once/very quickly due to shock and die apparently painless.

Alternatively smash the head with an axe (not much you can do wrong here).

Overdosing with clove oil is also said to be quite painless.
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Re: Porcupine Puffer, bring of death

Post by LilGreenPuffer »

The AMVA recommends against freezing, even after shocking.
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Re: Porcupine Puffer, bring of death

Post by Corvus »

Well, I don't care about AMVA, just about facts ;) As a sidenote, the German DRTA recommends this. So, there seems to be no consensus among the pros.
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Re: Porcupine Puffer, bring of death

Post by Corvus »

Addition: The AMVA does not consider the method I described above (also found at the DRTA) in the AVMA guidelines on
euthanasia (formerly report of the AVMA panel on euthanasia). It considers only minimum temperatures of 4°C. This is abviously too high, I recommend at least -5°C. The shock knocks tropical fishes out at once or at least very quickly.
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Re: Porcupine Puffer, bring of death

Post by Dadof4 »

Corvus I agree with your method of freezing. This doesn't take hours like putting him it in a bag and then in the freezer would. Submersing it in near freezing water is a shock to the entire fish and they become unconscious within seconds.
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Re: Porcupine Puffer, bring of death

Post by LilGreenPuffer »

OK.
"I will give you a talisman. Whenever you are in doubt, or when the self becomes too much with you, apply the following test. Recall the face of the poorest and the weakest man whom you may have seen, and ask yourself, if the step you contemplate is going to be of any use to him or her. Will she gain anything by it? Will it restore her to a control over her own life and destiny? In other words, will it lead to freedom for the hungry and spiritually starving millions? Then you will find your doubts and your self melt away."

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Re: Porcupine Puffer, bring of death

Post by Pufferpunk »

Always keep Clove Oil on hand! There are many 24 hour drug stores you can get it at.
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Re: Porcupine Puffer, bring of death

Post by J-P »

Corvus wrote:Sounds neurological. Thiamin deficiency due to thiaminase is one possible explanation. Depends on the food and of course vitamin additions.

I also thought neurological as well which is why I asked about the skimmer. There was a lady who forgot to turn on the skimmer after a period of time (about a week) and wiped out a tank mysteriously.... lack of O2. She didn't realize that the skimmer was off until she did the emergency water change because the fish started to drop one by one over the course of a couple days.
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Re: Porcupine Puffer, bring of death

Post by Flutter »

Pufferpunk wrote:Always keep Clove Oil on hand! There are many 24 hour drug stores you can get it at.
We learned that the hard way. Had to euth a discus and I didn't have enough MS-222 so we had to do a late night run to Shoppers.
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Re: Porcupine Puffer, bring of death

Post by Corvus »

J-P wrote:
Corvus wrote:Sounds neurological. Thiamin deficiency due to thiaminase is one possible explanation. Depends on the food and of course vitamin additions.
I also thought neurological as well which is why I asked about the skimmer. There was a lady who forgot to turn on the skimmer after a period of time (about a week) and wiped out a tank mysteriously.... lack of O2. She didn't realize that the skimmer was off until she did the emergency water change because the fish started to drop one by one over the course of a couple days.
Lack of O2 is another option. The lady you mention must have very little surface agitation in her tank. A marine tank with sufficient surface agitation does not need a skimmer for additional oxygen input. In fact I have 6 reef tanks around here without skimmers, since growth of macro algae, soft corals, DSBs and water changes export enough material. All have strong surface agitation. I also sometimes forget to turn on the skimmers on other tank for days without any results of discomfort of vertebrates and inverts. But these tanks also have no visible problem with an 8 hour blackout. Some corals closed until power was on again, but that's it. That means I might not have much oxygen consumption at all in these specific setups.
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Re: Porcupine Puffer, brink of death

Post by suvattii2012 »

You could always use a fishing preist if you could hit your puffer hard in the head. Probley not the nicest way to end it but i hear trout die instantly. The vid is sad, such a lovly fish.
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