Sick Puffers

[ak37_glock]

Hello

I have 2 figure 8 puffer and 5 dwarf puffers in a 5.5 gallon tank and they seem to be dying. the f8s are not swimming just lying there at the bottom and the dwarf ones float around up top. i did put alot of aquarium salt like the store told me to for them. i started off with 5 dwarfs but one went missing i think maybe the f8 ate it?

1. no testing kits.

2. 5.5 gallon, 2 f8 and 5 dp

3. i never use any products except aquarium salt. i feed them only snails

4. no changes

5. the tank was setup 4 days ago what do you mean cycle? I dont bike with it...

[ak37_glock]

oh i also forgot to mention, someone told me that soaking their food in clove oil will help their immune system so before i drop the snails in i soak them in some clove oil.

[coldmachineUK]

Absolutely do not soak food in clove oil. It's garlic you need to be soaking it in. Clove oil has an anaesthetic effect and is used when we trim puffer teeth.
Again, do NOT soak food in clove oil.

1. Adding aquarium salt is no good - you need to bring them up to brackish water using marine salt - there is a difference. You also need a refractometer to measure the water salinity and make sure you are increasing salinity gradually otherwise the bacteria in your filter will die off and you will start a new cycle.

2. You say you don't know what cycling a tank is? Read the Emergency Cycling article in our library as a matter of urgency. Keeping puffer fish (or any fish) is exactly like keeping any other pet - you need to do your homework first.

3. Get a test kit then. You haven't even measured the water toxicity (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate) and in a four-day old tank I'm betting you those levels are sky-high and your puffers are being poisoned in their own waste.

4. A 5.5G is far too small for two F8 and 5 DP. It's too small for 5 DP even. A single F8 puffer needs ~15G; you could probably keep a pair of F8 in a 20G.

[ak37_glock]

crap, really? I thought the person said clove oil.. yeah i will try to get some marine salt. by the way whats the difference. Also I was told me the petstore that I could keep them in a 5.5 gallon cause they are small? I will bring my water to get it tested at the store tomorrow. i read that article. i dont think my tank is cycled yet

[coldmachineUK]

Okay, follow the advice in the Emergency Cycling article, and do as I say with the refractometer and the marine salt. Marine salt raises water salinity, buffers the pH and contains many helpful minerals which benefit your fish. Aquarium salt is just a tonic salt, sometimes used in the treatment of ich (whitespot) but otherwise useless for increasing water salinity.

Pet store owners always tell customers they can keep fish in small tanks - what happens is the water is polluted far quicker, it's harder to keep your tank clean as a result (need far more water changes of far higher amounts), and nitrate levels build up which lead to stunting and ill-health in your fish. You should buy a tank with the full grown size of your fish in mind, never their current size - they grow far faster than you'd think

If it's any consolation you aren't the first and won't be the last to fall for the cuteness of a puffer without having done the homework first. I really hope they make it - let us know how it goes.

[bigfatfish]

[mrgreen]

First of all, welcome! I'm sorry you're having such issues. Its stressful.

I have both a dwarf puffer and a figure 8. I've been keeping puffers for four months. My first puffer, a green spotted, started in my 5-gallon hex. and died very soon after. I didn't test my water, but I did treat it with water conditioner. The short of it is, my GSP died of severe ammonia poisoning. He looked HORRIBLE and I didn't know why. I put my hand in the tank and the only thing I can think of to explain it is that the bones in my hands hurt! I took a sample to Petco where they tested it with a dipstick test and the guy's eyes bugged out and his jaw dropped. I wish I had hard numbers, but it really doesn't matter. The moral of the story is that GSPs need a 55 gallon tank EACH and even if I had changed the water 75% every single day, he wouldn't have made it, probably. Now, I have a dwarf puffer in the same tank and he's happy as pie. Its just him and some cherry shrimp and a couple otto cats. My Figure8 lives in a 30 gallon. I had two, but one wasn't eating well and my filter was off for 24 hours, killing my good bacteria and raising the ammonia. It only went up to 0.25- the minimum ammount detectable- but it was enough to stress the one and he died. My feeling is that I give each of my fish maximum gallons for what it needs, if not more. I can only imagine your dwarfs and F8s in your 5.5 gallon. (I have one for snails and worms.) I've been to the local fish store and seen one of the F8s jump the divider into the DPs section and zoom around chasing the DPs and eating them- HAPPILY!

If you want to keep all your fish, I'd say you need to get at least a 15 gallon tank (again I err on the higher side of the range) for the F8 and another tank that is 3-5 gallons for each DP. The DPs are fresh water. The F8s are brackish- and yes you need marine salt. Its really not that difficult to do light salt, but just make sure to add it gradually- about 0.002 a week.

Oh yes- and as you've already heard, clove oil is an anesthetic, so no wonder they are acting slow, on top of there probably being too high of ammonia and/or nitrites. In the meantime, can you find something to separate them in the tank somehow, and change the water a lot? Is your tank cycled? You can buy several types of instant cycling products which are the bacteria you need. One is called Dr.Tims, another is Tetra Safestart. They both work for fresh and light brackish tanks. (Don't get Cycle- I did and was told its all dead bacteria, even though the lfs seemed to like it.)

[ak37_glock]

Yeah i just did like a 90 % water change. I hope they will survive. I have a 2.5 gallon right now I guess ill throw the 4 dp in there and keep the 2 f8 in the 5.5 gal. Could I just do massive water changes everyday until the tank cycles? I have an empty 75 gallon but i dont know if I should set it all up just for 6 fish. I was planning to get rid of it.

[Mrs.Puff]

ak37glock- i was as confused as you are now too. I had 2 green spotted puffers in a 5g! than a 10g than i put them in a 55g. Unfortunately that busted and now they are in a 29, but seem to be doing fine. When i got my GSPs the petstore also said use aquarium salt but thats not going to cut it. And yes puffers produce a crap load of waste that builds up faster than you can imagine and the hormones they release build up fast too which (i heard) will stunt their growth and cause health problems. When you move them to a bigger tank, over filtration is a plus! And yea im going to start my brackish water soon to so im not much help with that yet, but i can tell you that before you add the marine salt, premix it in a bucket and put an airator or powerhead in it and let it mix and oxygenate over night than test it with the hydrometer to make sure it wont be too strong for your aquarium. To start your brackish, the specific gravity of the salt should be no more than .002 or else you will kill your biofilter and possibly your fish.

NOTE: Always make sure the salt is mixed real good, If there are still salt granules that go into your tank, it will burn the gills on your fish and possibly cause death. This goes with aquarium salt too, if your still using it. Dissolve it first too and make sure it is all dissolved before adding it.

[mrgreen]

Actually, they'd ALL be much better off in a 75 gallon rather than even splitting them into a 2.5 and a 5.5. You'll be doing water changes out your ears- like every 5 minutes (exaggerating, but still!)- if you have them in those tiny tanks! Don't get rid of that tank! That's a nice size. You could have your 2 F8s in there very nicely, and even if you threw ALL your puffers in it, they'd have space to get away from each other. The problem though is that they require different water types- DPs are fresh water. When you do this, get some Dr.Tim's or Tetra Safestart- the amount required for a 75 gallon- and put it in the filter. Your F8s will be MUCH happier. If you could then split up your DPs into your remaining tanks, that would be good. Just remember to cycle those tanks, too.

[ak37_glock]

Ya I guess I could setup my 75 gallon. But from everywhere i read about cycling it takes soo long unless I buy some of the products which some people say it doesnt work.. in the mean time I will water change 2twice a day in the morning and at night until i setup my 75. hope they survive..

[mrgreen]

The brand "cycle" does not work. BUT, Tetra Safestart DOES, as does Dr. Tim's.http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... atid=18986 The greatly-increased tank size in addition to either one of these will get your tank off to a great start and your puffers will be thrilled. You can still do tests (I use API brand) on your water just to make sure, but you'll be surprise what a difference these two things will make.

ETA: These products are instant cycling! You can put the fish in right away. You also need to add water conditioner and any salt first, too. But other than that, you should be good to go.

[pufferpuggirl]

Wow, I'm surprised all your puffers are still alive, soaking food in clove oil and keeping them all in such a small tank! I am not being rude, but it's just amazing that they are still going!
I hope they pull through, and do you have anyone that might be able to let you have some mature filter media? That will help you "cycle" your tank quicker because of the good bacteria that's already in there.

I can't imagine someone telling you to soak food in clove oil, what a strange thing to suggest. I was going to use Clove oil to trim my SAP's teeth, but have changed my mind as I don't like some of the things I've heard about it.

Best of luck to you and your puffers. Let us know how it goes!

[Pufferpunk]

I'm really glad you found us! Great advice above. Just goes to show how mis-informed stores are.

[LilGreenPuffer]

Good luck!