Products to use for Instant Cycling!

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tropicshell
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Re: Products to use for Instant Cycling!

Post by tropicshell » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:13 am

bertie 83 wrote:For those who have aquariums already, pop an extra filter on your tank(s) and then you have a great source of bacteria at hand. Maybe slightly irrelevant to this thread but a great alternative to bottled bacteria.

You are right buddy.
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Re: Products to use for Instant Cycling!

Post by RTR » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:31 am

The ratio is dependent on the pH and temp. The US gov has/had some excellent full tables which were handy, but some of those have been moved around and I do not have the current URLs.
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Arron
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Re: Products to use for Instant Cycling!

Post by Arron » Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:56 pm

you can also use the tank for cycling.

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Sgchick
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Re: Products to use for Instant Cycling!

Post by Sgchick » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:05 am

How long would I need to have an extra filter on a cycled tank before I switch over to a new tank?

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FishFan
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Re: Products to use for Instant Cycling!

Post by FishFan » Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:05 am

RTR wrote:By definition, an instantly cycled tank would show zero positive ammonia(1) and nitrite(2) readings from the time of adding the "instant cycle" product, and a positive increase in the nitrate(3) titer.
I wonder if it is possible to put a product in a tank with no nitrites and establish nitrite conversion to nitrate at a level that would support a significant fish load before the ammonia conversion to nitrite has begun. It is good to hear that savvy people have had success with Bio-Spira, but I wonder if it should be added twice, once to initiate ammonia conversion, then again when nitrite rises, as it did in our recently started tank. When the tank reached .5 nitrite it was reduced to zero overnight after we added Bio-Spira a second time. The first addition was when the fish was added.

Just a thought, the data I have isn't enough to make a conclusion.
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Re: Products to use for Instant Cycling!

Post by Pufferpunk » Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:01 am

Instant cycling products should show NO ammonia/nitrite at the introduction of product & full bioload. As long as the tank isn't overstocked & ALL live rock is fully cured. Adding live nitrification bacteria should not cause any ammonia/nitrite spike of any kind
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

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Re: Products to use for Instant Cycling!

Post by RTR » Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:14 am

If the "instant" cycle product works, there should be no detectable ammonia or nitrite period, and nitrate titers should increase routinely. If there are detectable intermediates (ammonia and/or nitrite for days to weeks, a second dose of product is definitely called for, as the nitrite-oxidizing bacteria may be starved if high ammonia titers are seen for too long a period.

But if the tank has adequate mature live rock, instant cycling products should be redundant - no nitrogen metabolites - ammonia, nitrite, nitrate - would be showing. Most just FOWR+ skimmer only will have a hard time achieving that effect. However, with a mature adequately sized 24/7 lighted refugium or a mature plenum or DSB, the end product - nitrate - will or should also bill minimized to hobby kit undetectable levels.

All this of course does assume adequate tank size for the bioload, routine upkeep on schedule, and conservative feeding. Noah' Ark tank stocking and feeding will still not work. The livestock load must always be within the capacity of the support system.

HTH
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Re: Products to use for Instant Cycling!

Post by Pufferpunk » Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:56 pm

^^^^^^^
What he said!
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

"The solution to pollution is dilution!"

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Re: Products to use for Instant Cycling!

Post by RTR » Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:59 am

LOL @Pufferpunk!!! You've got to love that Lady!
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Re: Products to use for Instant Cycling!

Post by FishFan » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:08 am

I'm a scientist so I like precise detailed technical answers. Most people don't care for technical details and just want to be given the important bottom line. I realize this makes me very abnormal to many people's way of thinking, but I can't help it.

Thanks to both of you RTR & PP. You both rock!
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Re: Products to use for Instant Cycling!

Post by bertie 83 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:41 am

I do wish my brain worked in a more scientific way, I need small words and to the point info for me to understand. It's not that you are abnormal it's just how our minds work in different ways. The information logged in rtrs brain both fascinates and boggles me if I am honest, but then when I think about it my brain likely harbours different 'talents"
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Re: Products to use for Instant Cycling!

Post by RTR » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:33 am

Too many forget that science is a process, not a separate body of knowledge. The languages of science can intimidating, but some folks - definitely including bertie 83 - do seem to cath on very quickly. Science is a technique more than a certain body of knowledge. It really boils down to a technique for answering questions, and of limiting the questions asked such that at least preliminay answers - or heavy hints will tun up with enough weight to lead us to more questions. Too many folks think it is personally beyond them. That is only rarely the true case. Learning to make the questions simple enough is a tricky part of the process. If you ask too big, too broad a question, the answer may require a book.

An example we play with here routinely is efficient full marine tanks. We all talk about full density SW tanks needing marine density (water make-up), live rock (preferably mature, tank-adapted), with an effective skimmer. With all that in place we still need something else. For me that is a 24/7 lighted refugium, but it also may be a plenum (mature and stable) or a DSB (also mature and stable), the old need for non-trivial water changes is likely still present. While the biological processes are establishing and maturing, we still do larger water changes than we would like, but as those biological systems mature, we can cut way sown on partials with the most effective filtration and water quality support available to us in any water type. If we started with half again or 2x the well-cured live rock, we could cut the water partials very quickly to "mature system" levels. But the up-front cost would also be close to 2x as much. That saves water costs, but not enough to make the more $$$ set-up practical for most folks. To some, the time saving may justify the higher costs. To others it may price the set-up out or reach due the large up-front price. We still have no "closed systems" where nothing is added or removed. We have not reached that level and may never do so. We hhave to replace the skimmed water volume entirely and the more lightly contaminated bulk water in the system in smaller, less expensive and less time-consuming batches. Now we need to develop similar end-result systems for FW and BW.

But we can be quite proud of the advances we have made. Our hobby is becoming a science. That is nothing to be feared. It is something to be celebrated. And for SW tanks we do not need as many "big words" unless you insist on knowing the "How?" and "Why?". If you can settle for the "What?", no big poly-syllable language is required.

HTH
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Re: Products to use for Instant Cycling!

Post by FishFan » Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:07 pm

Knowing the science can keep you from making mistakes such as significantly raising the temperature and pH in a tank with measurable ammonia (toxic un-ionized ammonia will increase by 3-6 times even though the API ammonia test which is sensitive to both less toxic ionized plus unionized ammonia will show the same test level).

Knowing the science won't help you know what size tank you need, how much live rock, what species are compatible, what temperature is best, what the best Ich cure is, how much salinity is optimal for your fish, where to buy at good prices, or what you should expect to spend on your setup. This knowledge comes mostly from experience.

I find knowing the science sometimes makes me crazy frustrated because science depends on data, and there is more bad data than good data out there in the blogosphere. I sometimes read for hours, get nowhere, and can't make a decision. That's where having very experienced fish keepers like PP and RTR to consult is as valuable as gold.:)
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Re: Products to use for Instant Cycling!

Post by RTR » Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:19 pm

It is unfortunately true and valid that too much or the hobby-level data is poor data. The example above of our inability to differentiate between dissolved ammonia gas and ammonium ion is absurd. There are test which can differentiate the two forms, but they are not very user-friendly as yet. In a mature tank there should never be any hobby test kit detectable ammonia or nitrite anyway. If either has a positive reading, a science-oriented hobbyists will then move to a better grade of test to find out what is really going on. But field-grade test are significantly more expensive than hobby level kits, and do require a bit more care in use. Most hobbyists will not bother. It may well be more beneficial to just go on and do the extra water partial changes until the test kit shows no nitrogen intermediary metabolites - that is, until annonia and or nitrite are undetectable by hobby grade kits.

Hobbyists really should know and understand that what registers as "0" on a hobby test kit is not an absolute zero, it really means that the metabolite is undetectable in the range covered this kit. It is not a real zero. There are multiple orders of magnitude, powers of ten, below the hobby kit range which can be detected by other tests. When we say "ammonia = 0", we are mis-speaking/writing. We are really saying we cannot detect any by hobby test kit. That is fine, it is not kidding ourselves. If ammonia or nitrite is undetectable, it is not harming most of our fish.

Most hobbyists do not have a very good appreciation of the imortance or concentrations of particular ions to our wet pets. Folks doing fishless cycling to unoccupied tanks have little information on the significance of concentrations to our tanks and especially so during cycling. The hard numbers (or as hard as we can get them) do really matter. "Instant" cycling is rare,and ony possible with good (= live) bacteria of the two required types. If the tank water is not suitable for those bugs to multiply and establish healthy colonies, even the besy products cannot work. The pH matters, the alkalinity matters, the innoculation size matters, the filter flow matters, the temperature matters. Think of instant cycling as a very demanding reciepe - if you don't have it all righ - in the proper ranges - it does not work right. The margins are pretty broad, but there are limits.

HTH
Where's the fish? - Neptune

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