A. Meleagris (Guineafowl vs. Golden)

[schlecht13]

So I was looking through one of the online marine places and they had listed. "Arothron Meleagris - Golden Puffer - Male". I though well this is a good chance to ask - maybe someone had some more experience in externally sexing puffers (yes this is related to my other post)...well turns out after several emails, this is what I get: "The Males are gold and the females are blue/black with white spots". I return the email indicating I was under the impression that the color difference was due to a difference in age and that the "spotted" variety eventually turn golden as they age. The response I received was, "we have exhausted all of our resources on sexing puffers - maybe you should try a local college". Ok not bad advice except now I am just more confused and I have every document I can think of available (to some extent - you have to order some from other universities)...

Am I incorrect in my previous belief that the guineafowl version is simply a younger version of the same species which eventually turns golden? I admit (although I have just started really looking - never been intrigued about this until now) I am unable to cite any specific viable/verifiable reference on the subject as to whether the color change is gradual with age or simply male and female.

Does anyone have any verifiable reference on this topic? Anyone done a dissection on a guineafowl or golden? I would bet the general opinion is color change over lifespan although again I can't reference to a factual document....anyone?

[yunachin]

Corvus would know for sure.
I do agree about the age difference between the two. The spotted stage first and then the golden stage later. Though they are not known to change color in an aquarium habitat. I know Corvus and I have talked about this before, he will be able to help you in greater detail.

[schlecht13]

So Corvus - you definitely seem to have quite the knowledge (which by the way I admire greatly!) Its good to know there are others who are as interested in I am in the well-being and continuation of such a great group of animals...so whats your opinion on the above?

[schlecht13]

Well nothing so far....still looking myself this weekend although work has kept me on my toes...I'll let you all know if I find something..anyone else?

[Corvus]

Sorry, didn't see the post. You can use the PM button to contact me if I overlook a post. I can also send you my e-mail.

Okay here is what I know about the "golden puffer" Arothrons :

Those gold colored fishes are color morphs of standard Arothron species. It's a phenomenon similar to albinism, leucism or xanthism, but I'm pretty sure no one knows yet for sure, which of the three effects exactly. Just like albinos (or your black A. nigropunctatus) they are born golden and grow up golden. This phenomenon is not limited to puffers, but occurs in many other fishes, e.g. there is a yellow/golden variety of the usually spotted Gymnothorax miliaris and there are golden archers (true xanthism here), and many more. Like albinos they can be male and female, the statements by the trader are speculations most likely wrong. As indicated in the other discussion on this topic (search button above) they don't morph in the aquarium or the wild, but stay this color all their lives.

Now the interesting part about puffers: The golden ones are not color morphs of one, but of TWO puffer species: Arothron meleagris and Arothron nigropunctatus. Both morphs are hard to tell apart, but the golden A. meleagris has a few tiny white spots often in groups and often on the back, while the golden A. nigropunctatus has exclusively black spots.

Most golden in trade are actually A. nigropunctatus.

There is some study on the golden color morphs indicating that they are preferred as sexual partners (just like blondes by some people).

Book recommendation: Mergus aquarium atlas #6 by Patzner & Moosleitner page 818-822.

[Corvus]

Here's the other discussion of the same topic:

http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/vie ... is#p119796

[Corvus]

A. meleagris:

http://filaman.ifm-geomar.de/Photos/Pic ... at=species
look at the fins!

http://www.saltwaterfish.com/site_11_03 ... enpuff.jpg
Look at the fins of this one and the back

A. nigropuctatus

http://filaman.ifm-geomar.de/Photos/Pic ... at=species
can be much more yellow, best picture I know is in the book noted above.

[schlecht13]

I must say - I am impressed! So you somewhat confirmed a belief that I have had....guineafowls (A. Meleagris) are guineafowls "forever" and the 'golden' A. Meleagris is golden "forever" (i.e. throughout its lifespan....

Now the question that I am sure you have asked and as a scientist - or at least soon to be Wonder why meleagris has so many variations and A. Nigropunctatus - even more it seems....I suppose its not much different than what we often see in nature - some animals 'prefer' certain other animals - and thus the genes have 'lived on'...for the million dollar question, typically in genetics - this variation would 'usually' mean a longer genome and puffers (Tetrodon rather) have some of the shortest genomes on the planet with Tetraodon nigroviridis (at least from I have read - some list Fugu Rubripes as shortest) being the shortest of all...genetics never stops amazing me.

So glad to have met you Corvus - I am getting ready to begin to complete by studies in my PhD with focus on (2) thesis possibilities - A. Mappa genome and range along with spawning of same or Arothron species and the other being Clownfish related. Clownfish were my 'first love' in marine biology and I continue to keep and breed several species-trying new ones is always my favorite - (and here is the only time you will usually see me on my soapbox) so that clownfish populations can eventually stop being overfished - almost anyone can purchase captive raised clowns and often the health and viability is better than that of wild-caught (with the only exception known to me at least being A. Bicinctus - my personal belief is that the wild parents were not of robust quality - leading to malformations in eyes and gills fo many of the ones we unfortunately see today)...ok off the soapbox and back to water changes

[Corvus]

Good the info could be of any use.

...this variation would 'usually' mean a longer genome and puffers (Tetrodon rather) have some of the shortest genomes on the planet with Tetraodon nigroviridis (at least from I have read - some list Fugu Rubripes as shortest) being the shortest of all...

I do not think the number of variations (at least what we as humans SEE as variations, who knows what puffers see as variations e.g. differentiated by smell or other characters we do not consider yet) is related to the length of the genome. Even viruses and bacteria with comparably simple and short genomes can have countless variations with regard to their surface. One single gene e.g. can easily code various colors, the possibility to show them. Albinism, xanthism (possibly the case here) and leucism are probably comparably easy cases with regard to genetics.

...I am getting ready to begin to complete by studies in my PhD with focus on (2) thesis possibilities - A. Mappa genome and range along with spawning of same or Arothron species...

If you try breeding probably a cooperation with China (if possible) would be very useful. They are far ahead of us regarding puffer breeding and are breeding several species for the (mostly Japanese) food market (likely) with the help of hormones.
A phd usually is around 3-4 years (Did mine in 2 ) and it may be difficult to get the puffers to breed without some help in that time... The genome itself maybe a good topic for a phd and will likely be successful... and maybe you find an easy test to see the gender from the chromosomes. Also a little toxicity might round up the piece. Using different methods at one subject in phds is usually appreciated by future employers (showing you can do very different things successfully).

There is tons of literature on Arothrons (at least a hundred useful papers/books), puffer genetics in general, but still so much to learn. I'm looking forward to read what you will find in your research.

[schlecht13]

Again excellent info and thank you! I have some solid steps towards my degree so I am hoping to complete my PhD in about 3 or so....as for your mention of,

"A phd usually is around 3-4 years (Did mine in 2 ) and it may be difficult to get the puffers to breed without some help in that time... The genome itself maybe a good topic for a phd and will likely be successful... and maybe you find an easy test to see the gender from the chromosomes. Also a little toxicity might round up the piece. Using different methods at one subject in phds is usually appreciated by future employers (showing you can do very different things successfully)."

I should have clarified, I am not wanting to actually see spawning behavior in captivity so much as I am in a wild setting - from what I have read, I know little but this - they are open water spawners, eggs or pelagic for months...not much more so seeing this could prove next to impossible. Also considering some of the lesser known clowns (i.e. Chrysogaster) seeing as I love them as much as I do research on puffers.

Your knowledge of genetics is fascinating. I completed my M.S. in Clinical Genetics (Genetic Counseling) although obviously learned very little about puffers....humans I'm great with! I am attempting to apply some of this knowledge to puffers and marine fish in general but it looks like I will need some more training.

The tons of literature on Arothrons...again wow - I am having a difficult time finding but imagine once I reach Florida and my university, should be much better off. University of Oklahoma Medical Library has plenty on medicine and little on natural marine biology....

Again thanks and look forward to talking genetics more!

[iplaydrums1]

god that is amazing. id seen some varieties recently in some fish that dont exactly look "the way im used to" so i guess this explains it.

thanks1