Request for Correction

[Sikrus]

Location: ug.php/v/PufferPedia/Freshwater/T_Baileyi/

The T. Baileyi pH range is incorrect. These puffers are typically found in water around 7.0 pH, T. Baileyi will NOT survive in acidic pH like 6.0! From my experience, I would recommend a range of 6.8 - 7.2 (this is the average pH range of the Mekong river).

[RTR]

Refrences?

Just what is it about acid water which would or could be fatal to a riverine fish (and therefore native to widely varying water chemistry over the course of a year) in the wild or in captivity?

Agreed that highly acidic tanks are not the easiest to maintain at that level, but I am unaware of any direct dangers to fish simply from low pH but not below 6.

[Sikrus]

Refrences?

Just what is it about acid water which would or could be fatal to a riverine fish (and therefore native to widely varying water chemistry over the course of a year) in the wild or in captivity?

Agreed that highly acidic tanks are not the easiest to maintain at that level, but I am unaware of any direct dangers to fish simply from low pH but not below 6.

Different species have different tolerances to acidity in the water, so generalizing that if it's not below 6.0 it's not dangerous is simply irresponsible. A quick answer to your question: Unnatural levels of acidity in the water will influence osmoregulation, specifically the levels of sodium in the tissue and the levels of oxygen in the blood.

I am not going to provide you with any references. The person or persons responsible for the data on that page should conduct a more accurate research on the species. I would also recommend correcting the T. suvattii (another Mekong puffer) pH information to a desirable range of 6.8 to 7.2.

[xrayjeeper83]

Ok so we are to beleive you just on your word? Some random new comer with nothing to back themselves up over someone that has been here for a very long time, is highly respected in the fish community and has written many many articles and kept 100s of fish.

Ill keep doing what ive been doing and listen to RTR, and the other proven people on here.

[sevenyearnight]

You are going to get the dissolved solids lecture...

[J-P]

I am not going to provide you with any references. The person or persons responsible for the data on that page should conduct a more accurate research on the species.

Why not? this is a "forum" thus, an open discussion. Not a scientific lab. If you can reference the info it would be beneficial to all parties.

Ie: I found this on the water quality subject and it is an interesting read. It seems the median target Ph range is 6.5

http://www.mrcmekong.org/download/free_ ... aper19.pdf

it seems, depending on the area and the time of year, the Ph levels vary considerably. A good section is 5.2 on acidification

[Flutter]

Thank you for coming to us with this issue. It truly would be beneficial if you could provide us with some references. I would look but I just don't have the time. I'm sure you understand that we can't just change it because a complete stranger says that it is incorrect. Your help is appreciated but we need more to go on, unfortunately your word just isn't enough

[RTR]

Fish do not read external pH. They do some active and some passive ion transport across their water-contact membranes to keep their internal osmolarity an pH at appropriate levels, but that is ion-specific and not particularly external pH-specific.

Osmolarity is independent of pH. Very soft acid water in the wild does tend to have low ionic strength, but in captive systems, it mat not be at all the same as the conditions fond in the wild.

The pH of tank water has little direct impact in captivity other than for breeding certain species whose eggs are sensitive to certain ions in the water, but that again is an ion-specific issue, not simply a pH issue at all. Most of those fish are not maintained nor even conditioned for breeding routinely in their breeding-water conditions They are transferred or changed to such water only for the actual breeding events.

Hobbyists in general tend to give far too much emphasis or importance to pH, which actually is only a decent measure of the water's stability over time in a particular captive setup. That is likely because they really do not understand pH. The water profile and relative freedom from pollution is far more important in semi-closed captive systems. Our hobby tanks are almost all semi-closed systems

Folks who come onto a forum and pronounce local reference information erroneous have the requirement of supporting their claims by presenting back-up data and arguments supporting their own claims. Simply stating that something is so does make it so. Data is required. Otherwise they do tend to be ignored. That is actually exactly the right thing to do IMHO and IME.

The handling and maintenance of captive fish is not an exercise in attempting to match their water conditions in the wild. On the contrary, suggested captive conditions are those which have been found effective by the hobbyists most experienced with those fish to be workable, effective, and sustainable. Any correlation with the wild conditions in which those fish may be found at some point in the year is in fact coincidental. Captive conditions are pragmatic, not simulations of wild conditions. We expect our captives to all reach sexual maturity(only a small percentage of wild fish do so), to far exceed wild lifespans hugely (average lifespan in the wild are quite short), and to achieve or exceed wild maximum observed body size and configuration (and again, only a very few wild fish do so). We would hope for captive breeding as well, but wit puffers we are just beginning to achieve that goal.

[Pufferpunk]

Folks who come onto a forum and pronounce local reference information erroneous have the requirement of supporting their claims by presenting back-up data and arguments supporting their own claims. Simply stating that something is so does make it so. Data is required. Otherwise they do tend to be ignored. That is actually exactly the right thing to do IMHO and IME.

I don't mean to be rude & we do always appreciate helpful advice/commentary but probably not the best 1st post here.

[Sikrus]

Ok so we are to beleive you just on your word? Some random new comer with nothing to back themselves up over someone that has been here for a very long time, is highly respected in the fish community and has written many many articles and kept 100s of fish.

Ill keep doing what ive been doing and listen to RTR, and the other proven people on here.

I did not ask you to believe me based on my word, even though if you knew of my credentials I would hope you would. I suggested that people responsible for the information did a better job researching that information. You are always welcome to conduct your own research; I will not do that for you.

Are you suggesting that because I have not written many articles on these forums that I can not provide useful information? Also, I would be more impressed with a person that has kept one fish for a very long time than a person that has kept hundreds of fish.

Why not? this is a "forum" thus, an open discussion. Not a scientific lab. If you can reference the info it would be beneficial to all parties.

Ie: I found this on the water quality subject and it is an interesting read. It seems the median target Ph range is 6.5

http://www.mrcmekong.org/download/free_ ... aper19.pdf

it seems, depending on the area and the time of year, the Ph levels vary considerably. A good section is 5.2 on acidification

Thank you J-P, I was aware what forums can be used for... I have nothing to benefit from in providing you with references that would backup my statements. I would lose time, and then those references could come under question, and then I would lose more time - this can go on for a while. This is one of the primary reasons I suggest people conduct research for themselves.

One helpful thing about your post is that you found a credible source of information on water quality in the Mekong. One thing that is not helpful about your post is that you have trouble understanding the information in the document. If you have read the document, it should not "seem" to you that the median pH is 6.5.

I will quote from the document: "The assessment of acidification in this chapter is initially focused on the WQI for aquatic life, which sets a lower threshold pH value of 6.5 for the basin as a whole". I hope I don't have to explain to anyone here what "lower threshold" means.

In 2007 I have personally conducted WQI (Water Quality Index) tests by Pha Lan and Koksan, Thailand. My numbers in the original post are accurate; 6.8 (or even 6.5) was not the lowest pH encountered but 6.8 - 7.2 is the average pH range. The main point of the acidification portion of the document informs the reader on the percentage of tests that violated that lower threshold of pH 6.5 for aquatic life. This should be a significant reference to at lease change the lower pH range to 6.5 from 6.0 (my recommendation still stands at 6.8 to 7.2).

Thank you for coming to us with this issue. It truly would be beneficial if you could provide us with some references. I would look but I just don't have the time. I'm sure you understand that we can't just change it because a complete stranger says that it is incorrect. Your help is appreciated but we need more to go on, unfortunately your word just isn't enough

Flutter, thank you for being courteous. I am sorry that you do not have time to conduct your own research. I also value my time beyond what it would take me to backup my statements to the forum communities liking. Luckily for us J-P found a document that identifies the lower threshold pH for aquatic life in the Mekong.

Fish do not read external pH. They do some active and some passive ion transport across their water-contact membranes to keep their internal osmolarity an pH at appropriate levels, but that is ion-specific and not particularly external pH-specific.

Osmolarity is independent of pH. Very soft acid water in the wild does tend to have low ionic strength, but in captive systems, it mat not be at all the same as the conditions fond in the wild.

The pH of tank water has little direct impact in captivity other than for breeding certain species whose eggs are sensitive to certain ions in the water, but that again is an ion-specific issue, not simply a pH issue at all. Most of those fish are not maintained nor even conditioned for breeding routinely in their breeding-water conditions They are transferred or changed to such water only for the actual breeding events.

Hobbyists in general tend to give far too much emphasis or importance to pH, which actually is only a decent measure of the water's stability over time in a particular captive setup. That is likely because they really do not understand pH. The water profile and relative freedom from pollution is far more important in semi-closed captive systems. Our hobby tanks are almost all semi-closed systems

Folks who come onto a forum and pronounce local reference information erroneous have the requirement of supporting their claims by presenting back-up data and arguments supporting their own claims. Simply stating that something is so does make it so. Data is required. Otherwise they do tend to be ignored. That is actually exactly the right thing to do IMHO and IME.

The handling and maintenance of captive fish is not an exercise in attempting to match their water conditions in the wild. On the contrary, suggested captive conditions are those which have been found effective by the hobbyists most experienced with those fish to be workable, effective, and sustainable. Any correlation with the wild conditions in which those fish may be found at some point in the year is in fact coincidental. Captive conditions are pragmatic, not simulations of wild conditions. We expect our captives to all reach sexual maturity(only a small percentage of wild fish do so), to far exceed wild lifespans hugely (average lifespan in the wild are quite short), and to achieve or exceed wild maximum observed body size and configuration (and again, only a very few wild fish do so). We would hope for captive breeding as well, but wit puffers we are just beginning to achieve that goal.

RTR, I never had any doubts that you can Google stuff up or read and maybe even understand Wikipedia pages on Osmosis. The reason I am going to assume you to be a "Wikipedia Warrior" is because of the assumptions you make in your post. If your arguments were true people would be putting Malawi Cichlids in pH 6.0 as long as it is stable - too bad the fish would still die.

I will try to do my best to explain this on a relatively basic level.

The balance intake, production, and removal of hydrogen ions from the body is crucial in achieving homeostasis. The regulation of acid/base homeostasis is critical to fish, and acid/base balance involves the maintenance of internal pH. (At this point you might be wondering how, if at all, external pH effects internal pH, I will explain in a bit.)

Homeostasis of intracellular fluid and blood pH in fish is highly regulated, the average blood pH of fish is 7.4. When the pH drops below the normal blood pH level, acidemia will occur, when the opposite happens alkalemia will occur. During acidosis the blood oxygen levels are limited (this was simply stated in my second post)! Even the smallest variation in pH can produce negative effect on enzyme function (most enzymes function within a narrow pH range), hormone balance, and electrolyte balance (this was simply stated in my second post as well, "levels of sodium in the tissue").

There are several ways the fish prevents pH fluctuations; kidney excretion, buffers in the blood, and respiration through the gills. This leads to the explanation of how internal pH is affected by external pH. Different species of fish can tolerate different ranges of external pH. Why? Well, solely because they are able to regulate their internal pH at a constant level! Fish accomplish this task by regulating the relative alkalinity of blood and tissue fluids via the methods stated above (If you have ever seen a fish during pH shock, specifically going from higher pH to lower pH, you will notice the rapid breathing. The fish, in general, will be expelling selective ions and the rapid breathing is meant to remove excess carbon dioxide from the blood, in turn raising the pH level in the blood).

So...since fish can regulate their internal pH whats the problem!? According to RTR there is no problem. RTR does state that "pH of tank water has little direct impact in captivity," maybe RTR has magic fish that can live in any external pH range that does not fluctuate! Unfortunately, I have never encountered such magic fish. All known (non-magic) fish have physiological capacity limits and maintaining internal pH in extreme pH environments is costly. When these limits are stressed the fish can no longer tolerate hostile pH ranges, the fish will "lose control" of its internal pH regulatory systems and suffer pH stress and death.

Fish do not swim around with pH test kits, but their body does "read" and reacts to external pH. pH matters,if anyone tells you otherwise, they are wrong! All hobbyist should give as much attention to proper pH range as they would to all other water properties.

I come to the forums and pronounce local reference information erroneous because it is erroneous. I don't owe you or anyone else references to back up my statements, sorry. I consider my statements to be simple contributions, not arguments. If my statesmen are not to be trusted, they can openly be tested. I don't think I need egotistical replies to my contributions, IMHO.

After reading your statement: "The handling and maintenance of captive fish is not an exercise in attempting to match their water conditions in the wild." I hope no one considers you an expert on fish keeping. The whole idea of fish keeping is to replicate their natural environment to the best of our abilities and enjoy the fish in that "natural" habitat. This includes the "exercise" of replicating the water quality for the health of the fish. Just because a fish can live to sexual maturity in an environment does not make that environment ideal for the fish. You are not running a fish farm. Maybe you should quit this hobby with that type of thinking.

I don't mean to be rude & we do always appreciate helpful advice/commentary but probably not the best 1st post here.

Oh yeah? A post that points out an error is not a good post? I don't mean to be rude but you sound egocentric with that statement. Maybe the folks here are correct; since this is my 3rd post I am automatically wrong, unless I pull some proof out of my hat.

[Pufferpunk]

RTR, I never had any doubts that you can Google stuff up or read and maybe even understand Wikipedia pages on Osmosis. The reason I am going to assume you to be a "Wikipedia Warrior" is because of the assumptions you make in your post. If your arguments were true people would be putting Malawi Cichlids in pH 6.0 as long as it is stable - too bad the fish would still die.

LOL, you might want to read some of RTR's articles here. He is our resident scientist.
library/author/rtr/[quote]Also, I would be more impressed with a person that has kept one fish for a very long time than a person that has kept hundreds of fish.[/quote]
RTR has fish over 20 years old, as do myself. We are always up for interesting scientific disagreements here, just keep it respectful to all.

[FADE2BLACK_1973]

We all are a bunch of whippersnapper's to RTR in other words....lol.

[Pufferpunk]

We have many expert scientists Mentoring on this board.

[FADE2BLACK_1973]

Corvus is one too .

[Pufferpunk]

As is Dr Neale Monks & Kelly Jedlicki (although she doesn't stop by here anymore).