Refugium?

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BedScien
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Refugium?

Post by BedScien »

I'm thinking of adding a refugium to my tank with an aim of reducing the necessary water changes and adding more helpful nutrients to the tank water.

Tips would be great!

I currently don't use argonite sand or any other buffer as I hope the hard water in my area will be making up for this. I will be getting a master kit at some point so I can ensure that the levels are ideal. The relevance of this being that I will hopefully be reducing the water changes so I may add argonite to the system somewhere to make up for this.
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Re: Refugium?

Post by Pufferpunk »

What SG is your tank? I'm not sure there are enough thriving BW plants to do this.
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Re: Refugium?

Post by BedScien »

varies a little - 1.005 or a little below

does that include macroalgae?
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Re: Refugium?

Post by RTR »

There is little point to a refugium in light BW IME. But for me light BW (still with FW bacterial filtration) is limited to F-8 puffers. Rather than add a refugium I wold just give the fish a larger tank. A macroalga refugium in low density BW will not survive, and FW vascular plants will grow too slowly and poorly to be beneficial to water quality if they survive at all.

SFAIK there are no low-density macroalgae - they are all normally adapted full SW densities. That limits you to microalgae, and their upkeep is IMHO, a PITA. Macroalga refugia are limited to use with full SW tanks and mot often used with FOWLR tanks with skimmers and a macroalgae refugium.

You might try several different aquatic mosses to try to find one which will still grow rapidly in light BW. I have thought about that be never done it.

HTH
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Re: Refugium?

Post by BedScien »

RTR wrote:There is little point to a refugium in light BW IME. But for me light BW (still with FW bacterial filtration) is limited to F-8 puffers. Rather than add a refugium I wold just give the fish a larger tank. A macroalga refugium in low density BW will not survive, and FW vascular plants will grow too slowly and poorly to be beneficial to water quality if they survive at all.

SFAIK there are no low-density macroalgae - they are all normally adapted full SW densities. That limits you to microalgae, and their upkeep is IMHO, a PITA. Macroalga refugia are limited to use with full SW tanks and mot often used with FOWLR tanks with skimmers and a macroalgae refugium.

You might try several different aquatic mosses to try to find one which will still grow rapidly in light BW. I have thought about that be never done it.

HTH
Nice one, mate :) I think I'll try what mosses I can get my hands on and let you know how that goes. :)

Any tips?

What types of mosses should I try?

Should I keep the mosses separated to stop them competing?

Any other tips at all are greatly appreciated. :)
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Re: Refugium?

Post by Pufferpunk »

The only moss I know of that will survive BW is Java moss. Makes a HUGE mess though.
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Re: Refugium?

Post by BedScien »

Pufferpunk wrote:The only moss I know of that will survive BW is Java moss. Makes a HUGE mess though.
Yeah that's just what I was looking at :D. Do you reckon I can keep it under control in a hang-in-tank refugium if i make it's overflow some very small holes. I'm thinking a few mm if it's possible.
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Re: Refugium?

Post by RTR »

Quite a number of folks have a variety of mosses, but I have never collected them. Almost all my experience is with plain ordinary Java Moss, but even that I have not tried in BW, so you are on your own with it.

The main tip I would offer you is to use diluted tank water (diluted w/aged/pretreated tap water to drop the density down to low specific gracity. Using old water gives you nutrients from the fish which will help the moss grow. In other words, slightly "dirty" water grows better plants than fresh, clean (low to no nitrate) water. Do weekly partials just as with the fish tank (i.e., you handle the test as if it were in the tank. You do need to operate the tests in the same manner as you do/will operate the moss with the fish. It sounds obvious, but lots of folks don't do that and get different results with fish and wonder why. It is trying to avoid shooting yourself in the foot.

Move the density up slowly. It the plnt/moss slows or stops, hold there an extra time period before increasing the density again. Plants, like fish have to adapt, and we don't know a lot about adapting them to different conditions. Slow is better than shocking and stopping them literally dead. If you have had a stop, cut the indreease rate or density change to 1/2 what you did before. Slow may be slow, but it is better than dead.

If you do get some going well in low density BW (close to normal growth rate is ideal), for goodness sake split it out into at least two tanks - you don't want to lose all your work in an accident. That would be embarrassing!

Good luck!!!
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Re: Refugium?

Post by BedScien »

RTR wrote:Quite a number of folks have a variety of mosses, but I have never collected them. Almost all my experience is with plain ordinary Java Moss, but even that I have not tried in BW, so you are on your own with it.

The main tip I would offer you is to use diluted tank water (diluted w/aged/pretreated tap water to drop the density down to low specific gracity. Using old water gives you nutrients from the fish which will help the moss grow. In other words, slightly "dirty" water grows better plants than fresh, clean (low to no nitrate) water. Do weekly partials just as with the fish tank (i.e., you handle the test as if it were in the tank. You do need to operate the tests in the same manner as you do/will operate the moss with the fish. It sounds obvious, but lots of folks don't do that and get different results with fish and wonder why. It is trying to avoid shooting yourself in the foot.

Move the density up slowly. It the plnt/moss slows or stops, hold there an extra time period before increasing the density again. Plants, like fish have to adapt, and we don't know a lot about adapting them to different conditions. Slow is better than shocking and stopping them literally dead. If you have had a stop, cut the indreease rate or density change to 1/2 what you did before. Slow may be slow, but it is better than dead.

If you do get some going well in low density BW (close to normal growth rate is ideal), for goodness sake split it out into at least two tanks - you don't want to lose all your work in an accident. That would be embarrassing!

Good luck!!!
Thanks very much!
I will let you know how it goes :)
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Re: Refugium?

Post by RTR »

We'll all look forward to hearing how it goes. I would be great if we had a hungry, relatively fast-growing plant for low-end BW. Then we would only have to worry about the organics load in such tanks.
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Re: Refugium?

Post by Iliveinazoo »

Ceratopteris thalictroides has grown like a weed in my tank in the past at SG1.003@25°C but once the temperature increased to over 30°C in the summer the plant suffered and died off. Java moss also seemed to struggle and die off over 30°C.

I used to grow the Ceratopteris thalictroides at the surface allowing it to grow above the water line
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Re: Refugium?

Post by RTR »

I do that surface or near-surface cloud as a fry magnet in Dwarf Neon Rainbow hatching and grow-out first tanks, but obviously FW only. Those critters don't like it too warm either. Over 80F can be an issue on several fronts.
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Re: Refugium?

Post by BedScien »

Thanks for the tip!

I have a big ol clump of java moss in a small tank as of today (I would estimate about 10L). Gonna be exchanging the water between the two. Maybe half a cup a day for a couple of weeks depending out how it's looking. What do you think?
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Re: Refugium?

Post by RTR »

Terra incognito to me - make notes and keep us posted.
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Re: Refugium?

Post by BedScien »

RTR wrote:Terra incognito to me - make notes and keep us posted.
Will do.
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